Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[harpo_72]

That comment is not just untrue it's stupid
I speak as a professional Mechanical Engineer and understand a lot about manufacturing. What kind of company would transfer the manufacture of a Camshaft back and forth to the EU four times in production. The complete process from casting to finish machining will be carried out in one location, the process is not rocket science and only an organisation set on adding a great deal of cost would do it that way and these people don't do that.

That statement is true and a small drop in the pond, car components are sourced from all over the world. Those from outside of Europe offer a massive risk to the lines, ” jit” is used but frequently comes undone. Thankfully the EU open boarders allow the freedom of majority of components to be free to move and its only disasters such as factory fires that impact.
Frankly your response has shown that you are not engaged with reality.

 

[SocketRocket]

Actually it is true and I know the guy and he does work for BMW - unless of course you “know” they do it differently or you just have an opinion on how is should happen because it fits in with the situation you want to happen

As has been said by a lot of people - millions of people are affected by the Eu and working within the EU boundaries without restrictions, it is ingrained in many companies, add in any barrier no matter how small is going to cause pain and uplift to somewhere where there will be minimal restrictions- but you will prob dismiss things like that under the banner “project Fear

So it's true because you know the man. I'm telling you it's rubbish, no manufacturer of high batch component production would work that way
The complete machining process will be carried out in an automated machining cell where the part will be made with CNC machine tools with robotic handling and metrology systems to ensure quality and interchangeability.

The rest of your comments are just opinions and guess what? Negative whatiffery.

You seem to miss the point that the EU is merely a protectionist organisation that want to be something that has never and will never work, an empire of Europe. Let's have a bit of backbone and faith in our country instead of your preference of running scared.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So it's true because you know the man. I'm telling you it's rubbish, no manufacturer of high batch component production would work that way
The complete machining process will be carried out in an automated machining cell where the part will be made with CNC machine tools with robotic handling and metrology systems to ensure quality and interchangeability.

The rest of your comments are just opinions and guess what? Negative whatiffery.

You seem to miss the point that the EU is merely a protectionist organisation that want to be something that has never and will never work, an empire of Europe. Let's have a bit of backbone and faith in our country instead of your preference of running scared.

But you don’t know their process to dismiss it so bluntly- the guy works in BMW in the Manufacturing of the Mini in Oxford - unless of course you work for them I’m going to suggest it irrelevant what you think they should do.

No I’m not running scared - I would rather not play Russian Roulette with the population of the country based on “faith” - sorry but that’s not reality hence why I think you no longer work.

Oh and one of the install teams that we employ have just folded due to the collapsing of three deals with companies in Ireland, France and Holland because of Brexit fears - that’s 7 engineers out of the job now - do you want to go and ask them about faith in the country and backbone as they need to figure out what to do before Xmas. No I doubt it because you prob don’t care - it’s all “Leave means Leave” .

 

[SocketRocket]

That statement is true and a small drop in the pond, car components are sourced from all over the world. Those from outside of Europe offer a massive risk to the lines, ” jit” is used but frequently comes undone. Thankfully the EU open boarders allow the freedom of majority of components to be free to move and its only disasters such as factory fires that impact.
Frankly your response has shown that you are not engaged with reality.

It's a great deal better informed than yours. Where do you get this information from, are you an Engineer or had ant experience with component manufacturing. I would guess not.

of course components are sourced from all over the world but they don't get shunted back and forth from country to country to carry out machining operations. That's just stupid logic.

My engagement with reality in this matter is based on a lifetimes experience and professional qualifications. What do you base yours on?

 

[bluewolf]

5 seconds on google brings up this...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

However, it's in The Guardian so it's probably just rabid left wing drivel 😉

 

[SocketRocket]

But you don’t know their process to dismiss it so bluntly- the guy works in BMW in the Manufacturing of the Mini in Oxford - unless of course you work for them I’m going to suggest it irrelevant what you think they should do.

No I’m not running scared - I would rather not play Russian Roulette with the population of the country based on “faith” - sorry but that’s not reality hence why I think you no longer work.

Oh and one of the install teams that we employ have just folded due to the collapsing of three deals with companies in Ireland, France and Holland because of Brexit fears - that’s 7 engineers out of the job now - do you want to go and ask them about faith in the country and backbone as they need to figure out what to do before Xmas. No I doubt it because you prob don’t care - it’s all “Leave means Leave” .

I know the process you describe is not practical and goes completely against best practice and common sense. Unless you can back it up with more than something someone said then I will continue to disbelieve it.

I will take your last paragraph as another dose of exaggeration, unless you can show some proof of course, maybe an article from a local news paper or similar.

 

[Hobbit]

Who runs the UK, the manufacturers or the government on our behalf? What is BMW's profit forecast for 2018? What are car sales dipping so badly this year?

Guess what, even with Brexit the UK profit forecast for BMW is £71m. The global profit is expected to be £81bn. The net profit is expected to be between £8bn and £10bn. But BMW are expected to miss their target for the first time in over 10 years. WHY? BMW's biggest market is China, and BMW's biggest manufacturing plant is in the USA. China have slapped a (retaliatory) tariff of 40% on BMW. But that doesn't explain why BMW is closing its plant in the UK for one month starting on Brexit day.

BMW's, and every other car manufacturer selling in Europe, are being totally stuffed by the EU's inefficiency in producing the new manufacturing regs for engines. Its well documented. And strangely enough several manufacturers in other EU countries, not just in the UK, are having shutdowns. Sales are down because people, and especially fleet managers, haven't got a clue what will be the most efficient, and tax efficient, car to buy.

But to go back to the first question; when you start letting big business dictate how a country is run you're on a slippery slope. All BMW is interested in is hitting its numbers by selling cars. No doubt Brexit will impact on movement, for a VERY short period whilst the mechanisms and efficiencies are aligned to new processes. But if you think Brexit is going to force BMW to shut its plant in the UK you've got your head up your ar5e. The previous Brexit thread had a lot of info on the total cost of shutting a plant down, Nissan. It would cost way, way more to shut a plant down and rebuild elsewhere than it would to resolve short term issues.

As a side note, Spain's train manufacturer has announced its opening a large new plant............................................................ in Scotland. Do you honestly think that senior business leaders, not owners of a corner shop, would take massive risks? Get real.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I know the process you describe is not practical and goes completely against best practice and common sense. Unless you can back it up with more than something someone said then I will continue to disbelieve it.

I will take your last paragraph as another dose of exaggeration, unless you can show some proof of course, maybe an article from a local news paper or similar.

You are going to continue to disbelieve everything that shows that leaving the EU has the potential to be catastrophic for a lot of people and it’s already harming people

Because you don’t live in the reality right now , you don’t have to work alongside EU partners to have a thriving business and a big work force relying on the link with the EU

You don’t care - it’s all about leaving the EU and not worry about the consequences- because we will have faith and any other out of touch blah you produce.

We need a deal with the EU - a lot of people’s lives rely on a deal with the EU , thankfully a lot of people in the decision making process are smart enough to understand that

 

[SocketRocket]

5 seconds on google brings up this...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

However, it's in The Guardian so it's probably just rabid left wing drivel 😉

But the crankshaft is not sent back and forth four times in manufacture as was suggested. It is cast then sent to be finish machined. Assembling it to the engine then exporting the car is nothing to do with making the camshaft.

Seems like Phil mate down the pub is also Guardian Editor.

 

[drdel]

Actually it is true and I know the guy and he does work for BMW - unless of course you “know” they do it differently or you just have an opinion on how is should happen because it fits in with the situation you want to happen

As has been said by a lot of people - millions of people are affected by the Eu and working within the EU boundaries without restrictions, it is ingrained in many companies, add in any barrier no matter how small is going to cause pain and uplift to somewhere where there will be minimal restrictions- but you will prob dismiss things like that under the banner “project Fear

I don't know the specifics of the Mini supply chain but many logistics activities are often for 'bulking' and/or tax accounts reasons even if they appear silly.

 

[SocketRocket]

You are going to continue to disbelieve everything that shows that leaving the EU has the potential to be catastrophic for a lot of people and it’s already harming people

Because you don’t live in the reality right now , you don’t have to work alongside EU partners to have a thriving business and a big work force relying on the link with the EU

You don’t care - it’s all about leaving the EU and not worry about the consequences- because we will have faith and any other out of touch blah you produce.

We need a deal with the EU - a lot of people’s lives rely on a deal with the EU , thankfully a lot of people in the decision making process are smart enough to understand that

You seem to be so blinded with personal prejudice you don't follow my posts.

I have posted many times that our best output from Brexit would be a free trade agreement, this would be in the best interest of both parties. I also see that we will have a payment to make for our responsibilities for pensions etc. I would like an orderly exit from the EU. What I don't agree with is the way the EU and our own government are screwing us over with this latest debacle of a deal. I honestly believe we would be better of with no Deal and could do well outside the EU.

I guess I am entitled to this opinion as you are to yours, I don't rubbish you because you have a different view though
. What you need to be realistic on is that my view is just that, my view, I didn't get more than one vote in the referendum I got one just like you.

 

[harpo_72]

It's a great deal better informed than yours. Where do you get this information from, are you an Engineer or had ant experience with component manufacturing. I would guess not.

of course components are sourced from all over the world but they don't get shunted back and forth from country to country to carry out machining operations. That's just stupid logic.

My engagement with reality in this matter is based on a lifetimes experience and professional qualifications. What do you base yours on?

Yes I am an engineer, degree qualified and a component specialist with over 25 years experience... so yeah I know what I am talking about. Components do get shunted from country to country to have different processes applied, cars are far more complex than a couple of cast bits here and there.

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes I am an engineer, degree qualified and a component specialist with over 25 years experience... so yeah I know what I am talking about. Components do get shunted from country to country to have different processes applied, cars are far more complex than a couple of cast bits here and there.

Then you will understand how machining cells operate and how unproductive it would be to machine different operations on a crankshaft in different countries. It was suggested that the BMW crankshaft was shipped back and forth from the UK and continent four times in its manufacture which is not the case. It's cast abroad and machined in the UK. This of course is not a Jit process

 

[harpo_72]

Then you will understand how machining cells operate and how unproductive it would be to machine different operations on a crankshaft in different countries. It was suggested that the BMW crankshaft was shipped back and forth from the UK and continent four times in its manufacture which is not the case. It's cast abroad and machined in the UK. This of course is not a Jit process.

A component can be cast in one country, and machine finished in another and then have a coating applied in another, then have a bush inserted in another site and then make its way to a stockpile which will sit for a period of time depending on the orders in the bank.
Now let’s just park it and accept this is the way it is, it isn’t ideal but this is what happens.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Here is a comment from someone who works with Mini ( BMW )

Hi Peter, it’s not as simple as just going onto WTO. I’ll give you one example:
BMW own the Mini brand. Mini is based in Cowley. One engine component (camshaft) goes back and forth to the EU four times in production. That movement is seamless and tariff free.
WTO would mean a customs check and charge on each movement.
Think about the end game.

Sorry Phil, but as article in The Guardian clearly explains it the comment is wrong; the raw camshaft is cast in France, it travels to England for finishing, it's then sent to Germany to be put into the engine, then the engine is sent back to England for assembly. So the camshaft only makes 2 journeys as an individual component, not 4. It only makes a total of 3 movements as a component or in the engine if it is going into a RHD Mini. The 4th journey only occurs if the Mini is LHD and is going back to the continent. The camshaft as a component clearly doesn't make 4 journeys.

This does of course assume that The Guardian article is correct and not rabid left wing drivel.

But assuming it is correct, does that make the Mini man's comment a whopping great porky or a slight exaggeration?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Spain, [the same Spain whom the loud UK Unionists gleefully claimed would block Scotland joining the EU in 2014....they didn't and they won't]
Now talking about blocking the UK's bid to leave the EU over the future of Gibraltar.

Brexit is truly is a 'Yes Minister' script being played out in a parallel universe.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Spain, [the same Spain whom the loud UK Unionists gleefully claimed would block Scotland joining the EU in 2014....they didn't and they won't]
Now talking about blocking the UK's bid to leave the EU over the future of Gibraltar.

Brexit is truly is a 'Yes Minister' script being played out in a parallel universe.

How exactly are Spain going to block the UK from leaving the EU? I wasn't aware that countries had a veto over other countries leaving.

 

[MegaSteve]

JiT is a smokescreen used by big business as leverage to obtain bigger subsidies or tax breaks... If the emissions scandal wasn't sufficient then the arrest of the guy in Japan should be enough to show how corrupt the fat cats at the top of the pile are...

 

[bobmac]

Surely if tariffs are imposed, Mini will find a way of making the crankshaft in one country.

 

[MegaSteve]

How exactly are Spain going to block the UK from leaving the EU? I wasn't aware that countries had a veto over other countries leaving.

A single country can't block a deal being agreed...