Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[ColchesterFC]

You only just cottoned on to this? You could argue we've been like this since the morning after the referendum when it suddenly became a political psycho drama in the UK.

Much like our *revered leader Boris, I haven't really been paying too much attention to the details. I've carried on with my life using my standard motto which is "It'll be fine. It always is". At some point something will happen, whether that is Leave with No Deal, Leave with a deal or Revoke Article 50 and Remain, and my life will continue pretty much as it always has done.

* feel free to use your own word here but I chose "revered" to avoid Mod displeasure.

 

[drdel]

Last October Barnier told EU leaders customs checks could use technology and be remote from the borders, possibly in the Irish Sea. He has now declared such systems to be Unworkable.

I guess the goal posts are on wheels with Bercow etc steering.

 

[ger147]

So if I'm understanding you correctly what you're saying is that we're totally screwed and the chances of getting anything sorted one way or another are pretty much bugger all?

As we say in these parts, aye!!

 

[oxymoron]

The same way we know there will be an EU army.

Again opinion, suspicion and reading between lines , is this in black and white ? can you point me to where it is please ?
If the EU is intent on having its own armed forces good luck to it it will need it with this shower in charge .

 

[Backache]

The intelligence may have come from the US or us but we acted under a UN resolution. Are you suggesting that it should have been ignored even though it has since been proven that the tanker was sanction busting.

There are 101 UN resolutions it is pointless trying to implement them in an uncoordinated fashion.
Acting as patsies and putting our own shipping at risk for the current occupant of the White House who treats allies with disdain is a mugs game.

 

[drdel]

Again opinion, suspicion and reading between lines , is this in black and white ? can you point me to where it is please ?
If the EU is intent on having its own armed forces good luck to it it will need it with this shower in charge .

Official line...
https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters...18-eu-capability-development-plan-approved_ja

 

[Slime]

So if I'm understanding you correctly what you're saying is that we're totally screwed and the chances of getting anything sorted one way or another are pretty much bugger all?

You only just cottoned on to this? You could argue we've been like this since the morning after the referendum when it suddenly became a political psycho drama in the UK.

We've been like this since the morning after the referendum when remainers refused to accept the result.

 

[woody69]

Official line...
https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters...18-eu-capability-development-plan-approved_ja

Yep, still no EU "Army". Just more talk about the various defence policies and security cooperation, some of which the UK has chosen not to participate in.

 

[woody69]

That does not preclude a free trade arrangement or the outline of one being part of the arrangements for a withdrawal. That was the UKs original wish but the EU insisted they would not discuss it until they had settled the arrangements for the monetary settlement and the Irish Border.

I reiterate that the solution to the Irish Border is a Trade Agreement where free trade would negate the need for border checks. The EU refused to do this as they knew it would create problems with us reaching an agreement and their political advisors in the UK were assisting them on how to play it.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[clubchamp98]

Again opinion, suspicion and reading between lines , is this in black and white ? can you point me to where it is please ?
If the EU is intent on having its own armed forces good luck to it it will need it with this shower in charge .

merkel and Macron usually get what they want being two of the biggest contributors.
Guess who the other one is?
Without us it will fall apart ,it’s all to do with money .

 

[drdel]

If my memory is right I understood that Varadkar's predecessor Edna Kenny was working on technology managed borders; the new guys obviously forgotten all about that to try for a united Ireland !

 

[SocketRocket]

Do you have a source for this?

Yes, the knobbly thing that sits between my shoulders. There is nothing in the wording of article 50 that excludes a free trade agreement forming part of the Withdrawl Agreement. Dave Davis wanted to do this but it was the EU insisting that they prefered this to be part of a Future Settlement and May folding from the previous statement. that 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed '

 

[oxymoron]

woody69 ,drdell and clubchamp98 thanks for the answers .
On a slightly different note i think i saw somewhere that the new EU bloke David Sassoli has said an extention will not be given unless there is to be another referendum or election ?
Meddling in member states politics seems to be already an established routine ( the road to federalism ?) It really is about time we told them to sod off once and for all

 

[robinthehood]

woody69 ,drdell and clubchamp98 thanks for the answers .
On a slightly different note i think i saw somewhere that the new EU bloke David Sassoli has said an extention will not be given unless there is to be another referendum or election ?
Meddling in member states politics seems to be already an established routine ( the road to federalism ?) It really is about time we told them to sod off once and for all

I agree with him, what's the point in an extension if it's just more of the same for another 6 months.

 

[Reemul]

I agree with him, what's the point in an extension if it's just more of the same for another 6 months.

Exactly so just say no to the extension but that's not what they want.

 

[woody69]

Yes, the knobbly thing that sits between my shoulders. There is nothing in the wording of article 50 that excludes a free trade agreement forming part of the Withdrawl Agreement. Dave Davis wanted to do this but it was the EU insisting that they prefered this to be part of a Future Settlement and May folding from the previous statement. that 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed '

This is what I am asking if you have a source for. You seem to be implying the EU refused to do something because they were being obstructive, rather than David Davis not actually understanding how the process was supposed to work and considering the numerous misunderstandings he has had I'm not sure why you are so confident the issue here was the EU and not the former BREXIT Secretary.

 

[SocketRocket]

This is what I am asking if you have a source for. You seem to be implying the EU refused to do something because they were being obstructive, rather than David Davis not actually understanding how the process was supposed to work and considering the numerous misunderstandings he has had I'm not sure why you are so confident the issue here was the EU and not the former BREXIT Secretary.

The point I am trying to make is that a Free Trade agreement negotiated as part of the Withdrawl Agreement would have gone most of the way to negating the Irish Border Issues. The other point is that this was kicked into the long grass by the IR due to it not helping their real objective of a United Ireland also the EU wanting to create enough disruption to keep us in.
If you believe Article 50 disallows this then please point out where it disallows it.

 

[Mudball]

Who is Will? I still think that Ref2 which asks no-deal or in is the way to go.. But who is Will?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1181811529840304128

 

[Hobbit]

Who is Will? I still think that Ref2 which asks no-deal or in is the way to go.. But who is Will?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1181811529840304128

I'm Spartacus!

 

[woody69]

The point I am trying to make is that a Free Trade agreement negotiated as part of the Withdrawl Agreement would have gone most of the way to negating the Irish Border Issues. The other point is that this was kicked into the long grass by the IR due to it not helping their real objective of a United Ireland also the EU wanting to create enough disruption to keep us in.
If you believe Article 50 disallows this then please point out where it disallows it.

You said "The ONLY reason this was refused by the EU and accepted by may and her team was that they didnt want us to leave." in terms of not negotiating a FTA either before or as part of the talks.

Negotiating this partnership cannot be done under Article 50, which is confined to the withdrawal itself. I already pasted the pertinent text from A50, but here it is again. I have highlighted the key sentences

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its
intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall
negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its
withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That
agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the
Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the
Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

Other Treaty provisions will provide the basis of a future trade agreement – or agreements as the deal might comprise one or more Treaties. In essence, trade agreements with third countries (that, is, non EU member states), can either be agreed under Article 207 or Article 217 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU). And we cannot conclude the future trade agreement until we have left the EU and become a third country.

All this is fairly moot though as it doesn't really matter any more, but you're making out the EU were putting up blockers to prevent us from leaving, when it is nothing of the sort.