Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Foxholer]

... Oops, I just wrote Socket's response.

I don't fully understand what you mean by the above. Please explain.

Ahh you guys are at it again.. talking down Britian when the Stats show that unemployment is down, inflation is down. yes some Rats are leaving, but that is because they always wanted to leave and are just using Breshit as an excuse.
...

I'm certainly NOT talking down UK! I agree that inflation and unemployment are down. I'm just (reasonably imo) cynical about the ASSUMED 'causes'!

 

[drdel]

Most international companies with operations across Europe already know that its very hard to restructure French and German operations. The UK is much easier to downsize/rationalise.

Ford Europe has been having profitability issues for some time, partly because of way its accounts are dependent how the global company 'HQ loads costs on the European operations for tax purposes - I'm afraid Brexit is a useful scapegoat at the right time.

There will be many more companies who choose to hide bad news in the same way.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Anna Soubry upping the anti in the Commons today.

Government cabinet papers saying that Brexit will be an absolute financial disaster.....seemingly.

 

[Mudball]

One for the T-shirt

 

[Sweep]

Trying to be very careful not to reply without individuals seeing it as a dig, I agree with your post and I also voted leave, I just don’t see any issue with people like Bluewolf and Sweep coming from both sides, the problem comes when good informative posts are simply dismissed out of hand due to the fact of who posted them.
If anything I believe we’ve gone backwards as a Country since the vote, there is less tolerance and more ignorance and have no idea how long it will take until the Country as whole is in the right place or if it ever will be.
Worrying times ahead imo.

I agree with this post. The only thing that worries me about it is that it appears I am seen to be on the far edge of the leave side 😀
I agree we have gone backwards as a country over the past few years, but I don’t think it is entirely due to the referendum and subsequent upset, though it certainly hasn’t helped. I have to say I don’t live in an area that is affected by intolerance or bigotry and those that do may be better placed to disagree. However, I think this is just an extension of a general trend that was already underway. People seem to have less patience and are much less considerate than they were just a few years ago. Just a drive on our roads will demonstrate this clearly.
Social media including forums like this, though not entirely to blame, do have to take some responsibility in my view. Whilst we all love chatting with others who share a common interest, its very easy to “talk” to people in a way you would never dream of speaking to them face to face. I am as guilty of this as anyone. I think we all are if we are honest. I hasten to add that this is not the fault of the social media platform itself. It’s us. It’s how we use it.
As far as Brexit is concerned, I remain amazed at how divisive it is and how entrenched people have become in their particular view. I remember the day before the referendum chatting with my brother who was a fairly strong remainer. We had enjoyed some discussions in the weeks before the vote. My brother thought leave would win. I thought otherwise. We both agreed we would soon know the result and agreed we would have to accept it and carry on. My brother did and I am amazed at the strength of feeling from remainers, which I think in return has strengthened the resolve of leavers, as has the frustration with the governments handling of the whole affair.
Whilst I remain hopeful for a better country after we leave I am not optimistic about the end of this affair being a cure all.

 

[Sweep]

Anna Soubry upping the anti in the Commons today.

Government cabinet papers saying that Brexit will be an absolute financial disaster.....seemingly.

Shame she saw fit to stand for election on a manifesto she then betrayed. Hopefully she will be deselected before the next election. Any MP on either side of the debate who acts against the manifesto they were elected upon has betrayed their own constituents and should in my view resign and stand on issues they actually believe in.

 

[Sweep]

Good point... but that was a different world than today... We operated a fixed market rate then while we currently have a market rate now. You can read more here
https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...pound-in-your-pocket-devaluation-50-years-on/
and a bit here > https://www.schroders.com/nl/nl/par...aluation-how-the-lessons-of-1967-apply-today/


Although not entirely attributable to the cut in the pound’s value, inflation nearly tripled between 1967 and 1970. And while devaluation did provide a short-term boost to the British economy, growth remained below the levels of the country’s international competitors. Given international supply chains, this will impacts things made in the UK. For instance, how many parts used in British-made cars are imported from abroad? In other words, will the likely increase in sales abroad, due to a more competitive exchange rate, be offset by an increase in the cost of production because imported parts and labour become more expensive?

In the age of rose tinted empire, GBP with a fixed exchange rate was $4.87 per £1. Following the War, as part of the Bretton Woods system, the pound was briefly fixed at $4.03 per £1 until 1949 when it was devalued by 30% to $2.80. Wilson devalued the currency in 1967 The collapse of the Bretton Woods system in 1971 led to the pound floating on international markets. Since then the pound has never regained its 1967 level of $2.80. Today £1 is worth around half that at $1.31 or lower

On a personal level, Supermarkets bring most of fresh produce from outside the UK, so be prepared for HID to give you a proper hiding when a essentials increase in price.

The problem that faced Wilson was that he was faced with a very strong dollar that the GBP £ could not maintain its place with. However, history has pretty much condemned the move as a disaster that did not even begin to tackle the root causes of the problems of the day.
Whilst it is correct to say a devaluation is possible, it’s not practical for the reasons you have highlighted and even if it was no government / BoE would even begin to consider it now. That said, we are a universe away from a Britain in Wilson’s day, as is the rest of the world.

 

[Foxholer]

Shame she saw fit to stand for election on a manifesto she then betrayed. Hopefully she will be deselected before the next election. Any MP on either side of the debate who acts against the manifesto they were elected upon has betrayed their own constituents and should in my view resign and stand on issues they actually believe in.

Surely any (Conservative) MP elected in a constituency that voted Remain has the dilemma that they have 'betrayed their own constituents' also!

MPs are Representatives, not Delegates, so are, in fact, free to make their own decisions - having regard to/being fully aware of any consequences.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Shame she saw fit to stand for election on a manifesto she then betrayed. Hopefully she will be deselected before the next election. Any MP on either side of the debate who acts against the manifesto they were elected upon has betrayed their own constituents and should in my view resign and stand on issues they actually believe in.

That would be half the Tory and Labour party MP's then.

 

[Sweep]

That would be half the Tory and Labour party MP's then.

Yes it would. Which may go to some way to explain why we are in the mess we are in.

 

[Sweep]

Surely any (Conservative) MP elected in a constituency that voted Remain has the dilemma that they have 'betrayed their own constituents' also!

MPs are Representatives, not Delegates, so are, in fact, free to make their own decisions - having regard to/being fully aware of any consequences.

I agree, it’s a dilemma and not just for the Conservatives. However the party (parties) stood for election on a manifesto. Their constituents are entitled to believe they would stand by this manifesto if elected. If their constituents were so against the referendum result behind enacted they had the choice to vote Lib Dem. At least they (and the SNP) were true to their word on their intentions on this issue at least.

 

[Old Skier]

Anna Soubry upping the anti in the Commons today.

Government cabinet papers saying that Brexit will be an absolute financial disaster.....seemingly.

And withdrawn her amendment.

 

[SocketRocket]

Surely any (Conservative) MP elected in a constituency that voted Remain has the dilemma that they have 'betrayed their own constituents' also!

MPs are Representatives, not Delegates, so are, in fact, free to make their own decisions - having regard to/being fully aware of any consequences.

Does this not mean they should represent their constituents view.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Does this not mean they should represent their constituents view.

That's a good discussion point. Largely yes but there are times when it is not possible if their views conflict too greatly, like now.

If sufficient constituents disagree then next election they vote them out. That's the theory anyway. In reality.............?

 

[Foxholer]

Does this <word 'not' eliminate to ensure clarity> mean they should represent their constituents view.

No! That would mean they were 'Delegates', not 'Representatives'

So bold bit...Yes; whole sentence...Not necessarily!

 

[Old Skier]

If sufficient constituents disagree then next election they vote them out. That's the theory anyway. In reality.............?

If only

 

[SocketRocket]

No! That would mean they were 'Delegates', not 'Representatives'

So bold bit...Yes; whole sentence...Not necessarily!

Stop the silly punctuation policeing, it's petty and unnecessary.

 

[SocketRocket]

No! That would mean they were 'Delegates', not 'Representatives'

So bold bit...Yes; whole sentence...Not necessarily!

If my job/task is to represent an organisation then I should be seen to be selling their values and aims. If I am delegated to represent them then what's the difference, it just means I have been chosen to represent them.

 

[Foxholer]

If my job/task is to represent an organisation then I should be seen to be selling their values and aims. If I am delegated to represent them then what's the difference, it just means I have been chosen to represent them.

That's not what an MP does though! An MP represents upwards of 40k folk with a complete array of values and aims.

Here's an expanded explanation. http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/mps-and-political-artiesp

Edit: Further digging has uncovered the fact that the opposite interpretation of representative/delegate can also apply! But the above link confirms my understanding of how MPs work.
Here's another demonstration of the role, difference and reasons - on completely unrelated matter. https://www.iaindale.com/articles/a-question-for-john-redwood-are-mps-representatives-or-delegates

 

[Foxholer]

Stop the silly punctuation policeing, it's petty and unnecessary.

It wasn't punctuation policing! The meaning in your post was fine. But when I replied with Yes/No options, the clarification was required - for my post.

I hope you don't bruise as easily as you (seem to) take offence!