Boris the PM - a new beginning

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ok - so go and read up on Single Transferrable Vote and you will see that it doesn't split the leave vote.

And it's not a desperate attempt, it's a realistic solution to the impasse.

The problem with the 1st vote, as I've said, was that there was no clear plan for Brexit. So it was all things to all men. 4 years on, there are barely a third of MPs support the deal that the PM was able to negotiate and the country is more divided than it was in 2016.

Ultimately there is no majority for anything - although I suspect there may be a clear majority for remain if another referendum was to take place. I'm a remainder, but I would only want to win a 2nd referendum on the basis that the Leave side had a clear opportunity to put their workable and deliverable solution to the people - so that there was no interpretation that the people voted to:
* take control of our borders
* stay in a customs union
* a Norway style arrangement
* stay in Schengen
* Leave Schengen
* abolish freedom of movement
* leave NI as part of the EU
* leave with No deal
* leave with a deal
* give £350M a week to the NHS
etc etc etc.

The leave ideology remain a shambles with no creditable proposal that the EU will agree to and insufficient support for No Deal.

I am supportive of the idea of a Confirmatory Referendum - and one that would have Remain on it.

However, I would actually set a high bar for Remain to get over for Remain to be a determined outcome that could reasonable be referred to as 'the will of the people'. I am not sure what that bar is...10% margin over the combined total of the alternatives on the voting sheet, plus 40% of the total electorate? I don't know. But it would have to be something that made it quite clear and - as much as these things can ever be - incontrovertible.

 

[howbow88]

I was speaking metaphorically so I'm sorry if that was a little advanced for you. I voted to Leave the EU as did the majority of people in a democratic vote and I am really pissed off that this has not happened due to the self-interest of various MPs and individuals.

The only person who is likely to make this happen now is Boris Johnson as Prime Minister so I am very happy he got elected to the position. Then you consider the alternatives

Labour - Corbyn will do anything he can and vote anyway he chooses that deliberately causes trouble for the Conservative party in the hope of forcing an election.
Lib Dem - Swinson's first comment was that she wants to reverse the democratic vote because she thinks she knows best. Yep that's being a democrat.

I think it's a bit of a jump to say that your post was 'advanced' (little or otherwise), when you mention Kermit the frog.

So what your post actually was, was just internet ramblings of someone who wants the UK out of the EU. Fair enough

 

[Grant85]

Of course it splits the leave vote. There are reasonable leave voters that wouldn't vote for a no deal exit. And there are extreme leave voters who want a no deal exit and wouldn't vote for a deal. Why should leaving with the agreed WA even be an option? It's been rejected by MPs three times already.

And despite your claim, the biggest problem with the 1st vote was that a majority in parliament didn't like or want to enact the result because it was the wrong answer.

We've already voted to leave so why is remain an option? Just because the government have failed so badly and screwed up the negotiations doesn't mean we should ignore the result and have another go to get the right answer. If we accept that then any future government can simply ignore the result of any vote they don't like and simply say "well we tried but it's too difficult so we're not going to do it".

Since the 1st vote, we've since had a general election and there is a sizeable majority of MPs who have said they want to deliver Brexit. There just isn't workable solution that close to a majority can agree on.

If there is another referendum and remain isn't on the ballot paper, then the process has disenfranchised at least 48% but in reality over 50%. Remember over 300,000 EU citizens weren't able to vote in the referendum but can vote in parliamentary elections.

In this scenario the EU issue will continue to dominate UK politics and likely that the remain vote will coalesce on this issue to the extent that they dominate future parliamentary elections and whatever Brexit solution a Deal / No Deal referendum delivered will not be a secure one.

So what is your solution that is secure and deliverable?

 

[Mudball]

Why are the leavers so afraid of a 2nd referendum... Are you sure you will lose

Why are the Remainers so keen of the 2nd referendum... Are you sure that you win?

 

[Grant85]

I am supportive of the idea of a Confirmatory Referendum - and one that would have Remain on it.

However, I would actually set a high bar for Remain to get over for Remain to be a determined outcome that could reasonable be referred to as 'the will of the people'. I am not sure what that bar is...10% margin over the combined total of the alternatives on the voting sheet, plus 40% of the total electorate? I don't know. But it would have to be something that made it quite clear and - as much as these things can ever be - incontrovertible.

I think any referendum has to be on a simple majority.

Problem with setting bars like that is winning a simple majority but not getting over the other hurdle leaves you with a situation where over half have voted for something, that doesn't get enacted.

Again, were this the case - the remain side would definitely keep going at this as they would feel suitability justified that there wasn't a majority to leave.

Look at the Muirfield golf club vote. Well over half voted to allow woman members, but not on the 2/3rds threshold. As a result, it was only a few months before the issue was brought back.

 

[Grant85]

Why are the leavers so afraid of a 2nd referendum... Are you sure you will lose

Why are the Remainers so keen of the 2nd referendum... Are you sure that you win?

I'm fairly confident remain would win and win big.

But even that said, it is still the most reasonable way to break the impasse.

 

[Wolf]

I'm fairly confident remain would win and win big.

But even that said, it is still the most reasonable way to break the impasse.

I disagree the vote was made and the decision was leave. Government can't go back on that because it would set a precedent for future votes that if they don't get the answer they want, they can arse around for a few montha/years then try again to get the vote they want.

For the record I voted to remain, however the majority won therefore we have to accept that and move forward and leave the EU whether we want it or not.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm fairly confident remain would win and win big.

But even that said, it is still the most reasonable way to break the impasse.

The impasse was not made by the voting public but those that believe they know better. Everyone MUST know in their heart of hearts that leaving is the right and honorable thing to do and anything else is just wrong.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think any referendum has to be on a simple majority.

Problem with setting bars like that is winning a simple majority but not getting over the other hurdle leaves you with a situation where over half have voted for something, that doesn't get enacted.

Again, were this the case - the remain side would definitely keep going at this as they would feel suitability justified that there wasn't a majority to leave.

Look at the Muirfield golf club vote. Well over half voted to allow woman members, but not on the 2/3rds threshold. As a result, it was only a few months before the issue was brought back.

As much as I might agree with that sentiment - such is the situation that the country is in that any further referendum result that indicates a preference to Remain must be of sufficient a margin - and of sufficient coverage - to make it very evident and virtually incontestable that the preference is to Remain. Otherwise there is not a chance in hell of there being any real reconciliation.

 

[SocketRocket]

As much as I might agree with that sentiment - such is the situation that the country is in that any further referendum result that indicates a preference to Remain must be of sufficient a margin - and of sufficient coverage - to make it very evident and virtually incontestable that the preference is to Remain. Otherwise there is not a chance in hell of there being any real reconciliation.

Nothing but leave will reconcile. The vote was cast and the result was clear, how on earth can this vote be ignored and replaced with another. Just think about it.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Since the 1st vote, we've since had a general election and there is a sizeable majority of MPs who have said they want to deliver Brexit. There just isn't workable solution that close to a majority can agree on.

If there is another referendum and remain isn't on the ballot paper, then the process has disenfranchised at least 48% but in reality over 50%. Remember over 300,000 EU citizens weren't able to vote in the referendum but can vote in parliamentary elections.

In this scenario the EU issue will continue to dominate UK politics and likely that the remain vote will coalesce on this issue to the extent that they dominate future parliamentary elections and whatever Brexit solution a Deal / No Deal referendum delivered will not be a secure one.

So what is your solution that is secure and deliverable?

Do you believe all the MPs that say they want to deliver Brexit? Like the Labour MPs who stood in the last election with a manifesto pledge of delivering Brexit but now want a 2nd referendum and will campaign to remain. To me that doesn't sound much like wanting to deliver Brexit.

You come across as yet another remainer that thinks that their views are more important than those of leave voters. If there is another referendum and remain wins then you disenfranchise the 52 percent that originally voted leave. But I suspect you don't care as long as you get the result you want. If remain were to win the 2nd referendum would you then support a 3rd referendum as each side would have won one each? Or would that be the end of it as we got the right result?

Our negotiators were poor and weak from the beginning, and I suspect that came from May. As soon as the EU said that we couldn't discuss a future relationship until the WA was agreed we should have walked away. If a future relationship had been agreed then there would have been no need for the Irish backstop and the WA would probably have been voted through.

Fortunately I don't have to have a solution, but with where we find ourselves now to me the only option is to tell the EU that unless they are willing to renegotiate then we will be leaving on 31st October and going on to WTO rules. We would then see if the EU were willing to throw the Irish economy under a bus or not.

 

[Hobbit]

I am supportive of the idea of a Confirmatory Referendum - and one that would have Remain on it.

However, I would actually set a high bar for Remain to get over for Remain to be a determined outcome that could reasonable be referred to as 'the will of the people'. I am not sure what that bar is...10% margin over the combined total of the alternatives on the voting sheet, plus 40% of the total electorate? I don't know. But it would have to be something that made it quite clear and - as much as these things can ever be - incontrovertible.

Wow! That's really loading the dice in favour of Remain. How about saying that Remain needs to score a minimum of 60%? Bet you won't like that. A simple majority is the only fair way to decide.

 

[ger147]

I'm fairly confident remain would win and win big.

So was David Cameron...

 

[Hacker Khan]

Pretty sure if Corbyn made some of the promises Bojo made today Tory voters would be doing their nut, saying he'll bankrupt the country. But as its Bojo and he's a bit of a card......

 

[ger147]

Boris making Hitler's Night of the Long Knives look like a teddy bear's picnic.

Almost the entire front bench getting the bullet...

 

[drdel]

Boris making Hitler's Night of the Long Knives look like a teddy bear's picnic.

Almost the entire front bench getting the bullet...

I'd expect any new 'leader' to do the same. He's right if they didn't stand with him they were, by inference, obviously against him. His task is difficult enough without having to wonder about the loyalty of his sidekicks in cabinet.

I saw the BBC's selected talking heads saying there was no detail in his speech, after seeing the Queen - honestly what on earth would anyone put in an intro-briefing. Such a quick speech outside 10 DS ain't the time for anything other than setting out the strategic path/goals.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Raab and Patel in some of the key positions. God help us, the lunatics have taken over the asylum. And to think tories get all upset about Dianne Abbot and her dodgy maths, at least she can't do any damage.

 

[fundy]

Why are the leavers so afraid of a 2nd referendum... Are you sure you will lose

Why are the Remainers so keen of the 2nd referendum... Are you sure that you win?

the obvious answer is

we won, we dont need one

we lost, we need one

 

[ColchesterFC]

And to think tories get all upset about Dianne Abbot and her dodgy maths, at least she can't do any damage.

Surely that depends on how badly Boris and Co. balls it up. They'd have to get it horribly wrong for Corbyn to look electable and give Abbott the chance to do any damage. But if it gets that bad then maybe Abbott in a position of power would be an improvement.

 

[MegaSteve]

Surely that depends on how badly Boris and Co. balls it up. They'd have to get it horribly wrong for Corbyn to look electable and give Abbott the chance to do any damage. But if it gets that bad then maybe Abbott in a position of power would be an improvement.

He's in trouble before he starts... As there are no good ideas from his predecessor he can implement and take the credit for...