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Boris the PM - a new beginning

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Kellfire said:
A bad mistake on my part but my point remains that you’re happy to accept anything that Boris’ government do that is negative for our country as long as Brexit happens on Halloween.
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No im not happy to accept anything, you made that up.

Anything they do that resulted in Brexit would be negative with people like. you, so you are the one being intransigent.
 
ColchesterFC said:
That just seems a desperate attempt to overturn the result of the first referendum. It splits the leave vote meaning that remain definitely wouldn't get the lowest vote. And when you have people like the new Lib Dem leader saying she would only accept the result of a 2nd referendum if the result was remain what's the point of holding one?
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Yup. Even now, after all the debate, there is still violent disagreement about all the options on the table. Ask one person what leaving with no deal means, and they’ll tell you the polar opposite of another. Same with the other options. In my opinion we are no clearer at all about any option, so any referendum would be even more argumentative, divisive and ultimately a waste of time. The truth is that no one really knows the facts to make a constructive argument for any option, as this is unknown territory.

The only thing clear is that we are now a seemingly permanently divided nation. I don’t know how we recover.
 
So who is going to be Chancellor under Boris? Will also be interesting to see if Hunt remains in the Foreign Office and who gets Home Secretary and Chief Whip.
 
Grant85 said:
So Boris is PM, finally his life's ambition. However he certainly didn't want it in this way.

Boris has made some bold claims to secure the premiership - ultimately the boldest of guaranteeing EU exit by 31st October and being so utterly confident about renegotiating the withdrawal agreement - that he was able to secure the backing of so many gullible MPs, as well as party members. With the 'we'll leave with No deal' being sufficiently brexity enough to win over the ERG and most of the party members.

Ultimately the withdrawal agreement is not going to change and more importantly parliament is not going to allow a NO deal brexit to proceed. So by the end of October, his authority will be in tatters as likely parliament will legislate to appeal to the EU for an extension. Probably after Boris has asked them to vote on the Withdrawal Agreement for a 4th time.

A general election is still a possibility but it would mean a number of Tories voting down their own government - which realistically means they will not be able to stand for re-election as a Conservative. Possibly there are a handful of Tories who would do that - but I think this is extremely unlikely that they would hand such an opportunity to Labour and the Lib Dems to win.

I personally feel a General Election is not a solution. What we will get during a campaign is more of the same - people promising things that rely on EU support and so won't be able to be delivered. And then people extrapolating from the results that people voted for x, y or z. Also very unlikely we will end up with an even more fractured parliament with no majority for a PM, never mind a brexit solution.

The solution is another referendum with single transferable vote and putting 3 real solutions onto the ballot - Leave with WA, leave with No Deal and remain. This means people could rank their preferences in order with the least popular option being eliminated and the 2nd preferences finding a majority for something, which parliament would then be obliged to support. And it would throw proper light on the fact that Brexiteers want all manner of different things, many of which amount to having their cake and eating it.
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Sorry buddy, you've split the leave vote. Have another think of what could be on the ballot paper. No hang on. I'll tell you.

Leave with a deal and tell everyone what the deal is.

Leave without a deal.

And we'd vote to leave without a deal.
 
drdel said:
I would assume that you have direct knowledge of working with BJ that enabled you to make these statements and personal digs.

I have undertaken a few projects that involved BJ and would disagree with your assessment. You might reflect on the good reports from numerousFMs of other nations.

Let's hope we have a few ratonal people around.
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I doubt Nazanin Ratcliffe or any members of her family would offer a good report of his ability/character...
 
howbow88 said:
I'm curious. How far do you go with that?

Would a Love Island contestant do? Someone who thinks the earth is flat? Mussolini? Hitler?

Surely, there are other things politically you care about other than leaving the EU by the end of October?
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I was speaking metaphorically so I'm sorry if that was a little advanced for you. I voted to Leave the EU as did the majority of people in a democratic vote and I am really pissed off that this has not happened due to the self-interest of various MPs and individuals.

The only person who is likely to make this happen now is Boris Johnson as Prime Minister so I am very happy he got elected to the position. Then you consider the alternatives

Labour - Corbyn will do anything he can and vote anyway he chooses that deliberately causes trouble for the Conservative party in the hope of forcing an election.
Lib Dem - Swinson's first comment was that she wants to reverse the democratic vote because she thinks she knows best. Yep that's being a democrat.
 
Pathetic Shark said:
...I voted to Leave the EU as did the majority of people in a democratic vote and I am really pissed off that this has not happened due to the self-interest of various MPs and individuals.
...
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Well, maybe like my MP and those in the LibDems, they believe they know best and that, because it is such an important matter, they must make a stamd - which is their democratic right, or even obligation!

Pathetic Shark said:
...
Lib Dem - Swinson's first comment was that she wants to reverse the democratic vote because she thinks she knows best. Yep that's being a democrat.
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And, if Swinson gets a mandate to do so, that's her democratic obligation! Being (staying) in Europe has been LibDem policy for eons! Though it's quite possible that their position prevented an earlier Referendum (during the Coalition with Tories), giving 'Leave' a better opportunity to organise and 'propoganda-ise', a large factor in the result imo!
 
MegaSteve said:
I doubt Nazanin Ratcliffe or any members of her family would offer a good report of his ability/character...
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A female journalist/researcher decides to take her young child and rattle the cage of 'free speech in a repressive, sexist, politically unstable region and expects the two governments that are already involved in very tense and strained relations to suddenly forgive the folly. Good luck with that !
 
And so many papers have a full front page picture of Boris doing a 'wee boy' salute as he stands on the steps of Number 10. Brilliant. And being spreadsheet the Daily Telegraph's picture is bigger than most and the small things are easy to spot.

Did nobody tell Johnson to brush his shoes before he left home? It is perhaps only a detail - but honest to God - his shoes look old, and they are scuffed and dirty. My mum wouldn't let me go to church with shoes in that state - maybe not even to school. What a great impression - but perhaps simply indicative of a 'could not care less or be bothered' attitude towards the detail...
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Well, I look at you this morning and I ask myself: do you look daunted? Do you feel daunted? I don't think you look remotely daunted to me.

This is like a classic three-parter - building to a crescendo. I have a wee feeling that there was maybe supposed to be a pause after the first daunted - to allow the adoring acolytes to respond with a resounding NO! And likewise after the second daunted - another resounding NO! With thunderous roar of approval as he rounded the triplet off.

Or maybe he thought that that might be a bit too Trumpian.

I'm utterly horrified but perversely very delighted that he has got the job. Short may he reign.
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Reading reports on his speech it seems that I was not the only one to spot this - and the apparent lack of enthusiasm in the audience to respond in the manner he had hoped for.
 
Crazyface said:
Sorry buddy, you've split the leave vote. Have another think of what could be on the ballot paper. No hang on. I'll tell you.

Leave with a deal and tell everyone what the deal is.

Leave without a deal.

And we'd vote to leave without a deal.
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Single transferable vote would not split the leave the vote. That's the whole point of having that format and allowing a multi-option referendum.

It would allow the No Dealers to express that as their 1st preference and then to vote a deal as their 2nd preference (and vice versa) - ultimately if there was more than 50% with a preference to leave by either of these means, Leave would win and we would have a proper mandate for what the country wanted. If there was no longer a preference to leave, then remain would win.

In your scenario I can tell you categorically that Leaving without a deal would not win. Not even close. Basically every remainer would vote for the deal - so you would need basically 99.5% of those who voted Leave in 2016 (the ones that haven't died or moved to spain) to vote No deal to have even a chance of that winning.

Also the real problem with your scenario is that it wouldn't settle the issue. You need to have a proper well informed referendum where no one can dispute the result. Ultimately the 2016 referendum was very close and the winning side had not published a plan therefore Brexit was all things to all men. 4 years on and we still don't really know what kind of Brexit the country would like - certainly not one that is achievable without having a border on Ireland, or in the Irish sea or being so closely aligned to the EU that it is hardly worth leaving. Or having a No Deal that would provide an economic slump similar to that of the credit crunch, except it would only affect the UK.

Additionally we have now had serious fines handed out to the Vote Leave campaign and clearly grey or entirely black areas with regards to how their funding was raised and indeed spent during the campaign.

Ideally we need another decision to be taken, with a much clearer plan (on both sides) about what each outcome means. And an emphatic mandate, one way or the other, to support something. Or else this issue will continue to dominate politics for another decade.
 
Piece said:
Yup. Even now, after all the debate, there is still violent disagreement about all the options on the table. Ask one person what leaving with no deal means, and they’ll tell you the polar opposite of another. Same with the other options. In my opinion we are no clearer at all about any option, so any referendum would be even more argumentative, divisive and ultimately a waste of time. The truth is that no one really knows the facts to make a constructive argument for any option, as this is unknown territory.

The only thing clear is that we are now a seemingly permanently divided nation. I don’t know how we recover.
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I think that many Remain votes might have gone along with May's WA (I think I might well have done so) - and that would have certainly done some healing of the open wound that will only fester for as long as...

But leaving with No Deal is just so far from remaining - the opposite end of the spectrum in fact - that such an outcome simply hardens attitudes against it.

And in the background, and sometimes in the foreground, we have Farage & Co. and the ERG ready to paint any deal that BJ might somehow magically conjure up with the EU through believing and energy as a sell-out - a compromise too far. And as the promises to the electorate about leaving that were made and are not fulfilled - the anger will continue - and the gaping chasm rent through UK society will not heal for a long time.
 
ColchesterFC said:
That just seems a desperate attempt to overturn the result of the first referendum. It splits the leave vote meaning that remain definitely wouldn't get the lowest vote. And when you have people like the new Lib Dem leader saying she would only accept the result of a 2nd referendum if the result was remain what's the point of holding one?
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Ok - so go and read up on Single Transferrable Vote and you will see that it doesn't split the leave vote.

And it's not a desperate attempt, it's a realistic solution to the impasse.

The problem with the 1st vote, as I've said, was that there was no clear plan for Brexit. So it was all things to all men. 4 years on, there are barely a third of MPs support the deal that the PM was able to negotiate and the country is more divided than it was in 2016.

Ultimately there is no majority for anything - although I suspect there may be a clear majority for remain if another referendum was to take place. I'm a remainder, but I would only want to win a 2nd referendum on the basis that the Leave side had a clear opportunity to put their workable and deliverable solution to the people - so that there was no interpretation that the people voted to:
* take control of our borders
* stay in a customs union
* a Norway style arrangement
* stay in Schengen
* Leave Schengen
* abolish freedom of movement
* leave NI as part of the EU
* leave with No deal
* leave with a deal
* give £350M a week to the NHS
etc etc etc.

The leave ideology remain a shambles with no creditable proposal that the EU will agree to and insufficient support for No Deal.
 
Beezerk said:
Let's get one thing correct first, some parties will vote against a deal irrespective of what the deal contains.
Boris could potentially come back with an amazing deal (he wont but for arguments sake let's say he does). Certain parties will vote it down purely with a view to gain power.
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Yes - they will. But it's not up to the opposition to vote through the Prime Ministers agreement if she can't even get her own party on board.
 
BoJo in No 10
Eng bowled out for 85
Record temperature today
What a day...

The Irish backstop is already making life difficult
 
Grant85 said:
Ok - so go and read up on Single Transferrable Vote and you will see that it doesn't split the leave vote.

And it's not a desperate attempt, it's a realistic solution to the impasse.

The problem with the 1st vote, as I've said, was that there was no clear plan for Brexit. So it was all things to all men. 4 years on, there are barely a third of MPs support the deal that the PM was able to negotiate and the country is more divided than it was in 2016.
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Of course it splits the leave vote. There are reasonable leave voters that wouldn't vote for a no deal exit. And there are extreme leave voters who want a no deal exit and wouldn't vote for a deal. Why should leaving with the agreed WA even be an option? It's been rejected by MPs three times already.

And despite your claim, the biggest problem with the 1st vote was that a majority in parliament didn't like or want to enact the result because it was the wrong answer.

We've already voted to leave so why is remain an option? Just because the government have failed so badly and screwed up the negotiations doesn't mean we should ignore the result and have another go to get the right answer. If we accept that then any future government can simply ignore the result of any vote they don't like and simply say "well we tried but it's too difficult so we're not going to do it".
 
drdel said:
A female journalist/researcher decides to take her young child and rattle the cage of 'free speech in a repressive, sexist, politically unstable region and expects the two governments that are already involved in very tense and strained relations to suddenly forgive the folly. Good luck with that !
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As I am sure you are fully aware... Should a UK citizen get into 'bother' (for whatever reason), whilst abroad, it is part 'n parcel of the Foreign Offices remit to seek to extricate them... Despite all the advice of the highly experienced people at the FO Boris, as FS, made a complete horlicks of seeking to resolve the 'situation'... Instead of quelling the fire he managed to stoke the flames to beyond retrieval... To the point you'd be thinking that dumping her in as much mire as possible was his mission....

Absolutely the last person I'd want in my corner...
 
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