BLM protests/ Riots.

[PhilTheFragger]

Problem is that it is a multi faceted issue and racism is just part of it

A major part is why the police in the USA act like that? Then you remember the widespread availability of firearms and so they must have to assume that everyone they come into contact with may be armed.

Then you begin to understand how deep these problems go, it does not excuse their behaviour, but it does provide a reason why they are so heavy handed.

However, anyone face down in cuffs does not pose a significant threat any more,

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Well said.

The ability to say "lets park this issue for now" is an incredible privilege for those of us for whom it's not an everyday part of our lives. It's an issue that has always been with us and we have simply not been tackling it. I am so angry at people lambasting the protesters while either paying lip service to the issue they are protesting or ignoring it altogether.

If the virus spreads through the crowds yesterday, spreads to others that the protesters go home to will you be really angry then as well? The cause is 100% just, the gathering yesterday totally irresponsible.

I'll repeat the quote given earlier, this virus doesn't recognise a just cause. It kills.

 

[spongebob59]

If the virus spreads through the crowds yesterday, spreads to others that the protesters go home to will you be really angry then as well? The cause is 100% just, the gathering yesterday totally irresponsible.

I'll repeat the quote given earlier, this virus doesn't recognise a just cause. It kills.

Yep

https://twitter.com/x/status/1269551012429336576

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Problem is that it is a multi faceted issue and racism is just part of it

A major part is why the police in the USA act like that? Then you remember the widespread availability of firearms and so they must have to assume that everyone they come into contact with may be armed.

Then you begin to understand how deep these problems go, it does not excuse their behaviour, but it does provide a reason why they are so heavy handed.

However, anyone face down in cuffs does not pose a significant threat any more,

Sorry but racism is a massive part of it all - it’s right at the heart of the matter. These things happen because black people are still persecuted because of their skin colour - that’s what is deep rooted in the US and has been for a long time and right now they have a leader who is the epitome of the racism and persecution people face.

The problem is racism - tackle that and many other problems disappear

 

[Deleted member 18121]

I have been sent many videos of what is happening in America that isn't being reported by the main stream news.... All that happens is that it undermines what the real message should be and unfortunately strengthens people's pre existing views.

 

[Papas1982]

And yet it's predominantly black people the police are murdering. Why do you seek to diminish the racial aspect?

Is it though?

I can only use google and I've no idea of the agenda's behind publications in the US so i could be using a totally biased source.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

Show's more white killed than black. Now there are also a lot more white people, so that would suggest a higher percentage of black people are killed, but that could be countered by the fact that more black people are incarcerated so actually it's a smaller percentage of black criminals killed than white.

Racism OBVIOUSLY exists, and I truly believe that it can be attributed to most of the reasons why the black community IN THE US are driven to break the law more frequently. Desperation leads to poor choices. But the stats appear to suggest that police brutality over there is the problem with the force, not the colour of the skin of the person who then gets the brunt of said brutality. I also agree that the gun laws can in someway explain why cops would shoot first and ask questions later.

To be clear, none of the above excuses the murder that was the catalyst for all this, but to try and use it as some sort of realistic example of the police force is imo false.

 

[Neilds]

Another issue with the lack of social distancing, etc, is that this virus is worse for black people with a higher death Rate from the BAME community. I know people feel very strongly about the cause but they still need to be sensible about large gatherings. I can definitely see a spike in cases and deaths unfortunately

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Is it though?

I can only use google and I've no idea of the agenda's behind publications in the US so i could be using a totally biased source.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

Show's more white killed than black. Now there are also a lot more white people, so that would suggest a higher percentage of black people are killed, but that could be countered by the fact that more black people are incarcerated so actually it's a smaller percentage of black criminals killed than white.

Racism OBVIOUSLY exists, and I truly believe that it can be attributed to most of the reasons why the black community IN THE US are driven to break the law more frequently. Desperation leads to poor choices. But the stats appear to suggest that police brutality over there is the problem with the force, not the colour of the skin of the person who then gets the brunt of said brutality. I also agree that the gun laws can in someway explain why cops would shoot first and ask questions later.

To be clear, none of the above excuses the murder that was the catalyst for all this, but to try and use it as some sort of realistic example of the police force is imo false.

Over the past couple of days and have seen the same stats over and over again and looking at pure raw numbers it’s not great at all but it’s misses a couple of things

1. The percentage of the population that are black and indeed killed by the police

2. How many of those that were killed in the act of a serious crime or those that were killed because of the colour of their skin
People committing serious crime then I would expect and hope the reaction is the same

But how many white people are killed just because they are white

Would a white man have been killed in the same situation as George Floyd ?

 

[Blue in Munich]

And yet it's predominantly black people the police are murdering. Why do you seek to diminish the racial aspect?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363

So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested.

 

[harpo_72]

Well said.

The ability to say "lets park this issue for now" is an incredible privilege for those of us for whom it's not an everyday part of our lives. It's an issue that has always been with us and we have simply not been tackling it. I am so angry at people lambasting the protesters while either paying lip service to the issue they are protesting or ignoring it altogether.

it’s not about privilege it’s about having clarity of thought and seeing a bigger picture. As stated the virus doesn’t give a damn about who you are or the colour of your skin, it will infect you ... where it goes from there I suppose it does. To endanger yourself, put others at risk, upset the process that is in place was an emotional decision not one of rationale.

Ask yourself this morning, where do we all stand .. quite clearly we are divided, I completely agree from my white privileged position in BLM but I disagree with unnecessary risks. The power of social media the ability to bring this in a non physical manner to the attention of those in government had not been fully exploited.. yes weight of numbers makes a statement. But under current circumstances not the method to be deployed ... there is no counter argument to this.

 

[Papas1982]

Over the past couple of days and have seen the same stats over and over again and looking at pure raw numbers it’s not great at all but it’s misses a couple of things

1. The percentage of the population that are black and indeed killed by the police

2. How many of those that were killed in the act of a serious crime or those that were killed because of the colour of their skin
People committing serious crime then I would expect and hope the reaction is the same

But how many white people are killed just because they are white

Would a white man have been killed in the same situation as George Floyd ?

1, is one of those that stats can shown either way, as i showed in my post.

2, from the source i quoted. Only 56 were described as unarmed. 15/236 or 6.4% of the black victims and 25/376 6.6% of white victims. So it wouldn't appear to be a disproportionate response to crimes. The only stat i could see that supports a prejudice is that a much higher amount of the white people shot were described as mentally ill. Something that appears to be used as a get out for mass shootings. Of course that could be countered by saying that as a wealthier part of society, whites are more likely to have seen a shrink and been diagnosed (gotta love stats).

3, Do i think white people are murdered for being white? Yes, I do. As frequently as the other way around? No.

The problem for me is that i consider those guilty of Floyds murder as racist criminals. The fact they were cops is irrelevant. With a mass racist core obviously there will be racists in every walk of life, but the way the whole force will now be targeted because of this movement is disproportionate to the facts imo.

 

[drdel]

Do not assume that racial incidents are all white on black. A significant proportion is black on black, and black on white, or Asian on white, Asian on black, black on Asian etc.

In countries where Caucasians are the minority the situation is often reversed.

 

[Pin-seeker]

You have to be careful when looking at stats,if people like what they see they’re all over it and don’t look at the bigger picture.

 

[Billysboots]

You have to be careful when looking at stats,if people like what they see they’re all over it and don’t look at the bigger picture.

Absolutely spot on. And we also need to be very mindful of how words are interpreted and spun to suit an agenda.

I recall, many years ago, the then Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police stating that the vast majority of street robberies were committed by young black males.

Cue uproar from anti-racism lobbyists, who interpreted that as the most senior cop in the country saying most black males were robbers.

He wasn’t. He was quoting statistical fact. NOT that most young black males were robbers, because of course they aren’t. Merely that most robberies were committed by that demographic.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Sorry but racism is a massive part of it all - it’s right at the heart of the matter. These things happen because black people are still persecuted because of their skin colour - that’s what is deep rooted in the US and has been for a long time and right now they have a leader who is the epitome of the racism and persecution people face.

The problem is racism - tackle that and many other problems disappear

Don’t get me wrong, I am not underplaying the racism issue, at all, merely linking it in with other issues that to my mind go hand in hand

 

[MegaSteve]

The statistics indicate, to me, we've found it too easy/convenient to put the kids/grandkids of the good people who came here from our commonwealth on ignore... Then point blank indulged in denying it...

 

[spongebob59]

[QUOTE="Kaz, post: 2186682, member: 27823"And people who were quite happy with government advisers flouting the lockdown, with VE day parties and crowded beaches suddenly being vocal critics.[/QUOTE]

I don't think any of these caused riots as an excuse to attack the police

 

[PhilTheFragger]

I am reluctant to weigh in on that since it appears there was a stooshie last night and someone banned for suggesting the police shouldn't be charging horses into groups of protesters. Suffice to say it looks like the response to protests about police brutality has been more police brutality. The world over.

Just to clarify, the person involved deliberately posted the videos and links in the “Things that gladden the heart” thread,
Which is just wrong.
An infraction was given which took his live points total to 17, resulting in a 2 week ban,
He was not banned for specifically posting this content.

 

[spongebob59]

Most of the reports I've seen say the horse bolted as objects were thrown at it.

 

[Billysboots]

I am reluctant to weigh in on that since it appears there was a stooshie last night and someone banned for suggesting the police shouldn't be charging horses into groups of protesters. Suffice to say it looks like the response to protests about police brutality has been more police brutality. The world over.

I really did want to stay out of this discussion but I cannot let that pass.

Have you ever actually policed a full scale riot? Been standing there, in full riot gear, whilst petrol bombs, bricks, darts and all manner of missiles are thrown at you, BB guns fired at you, and all under the gaze of the media and press, who are just praying for one police officer to overstep the mark, so they can go to town on that single snapshot?

Because I have, and if you think that the response from the police should be for them to remain passive and make no attempt to regain order then you are living in dreamland.

I am absolutely not condoning what we saw in the US last week. Far from it. But I don’t see too many media reports detailing the HUNDREDS of officers injured over there during their attempts to maintain order. Some have been shot, some deliberately targeted by rioters in vehicles, and many of them have sustained horrible injuries.

But you focus on police “brutality” if it makes you feel better.