In_The_Rough
Tour Winner
Re: Messi....
To top it all they are 10 points behind Real Madrid in La Liga!!!
To top it all they are 10 points behind Real Madrid in La Liga!!!
Barcelona
- Thread starter GreiginFife
- Start date
Grumps
Tour Rookie
StuartD
Tour Rookie
Re: Messi....
Too small. would never cut it in the SPL. :rofl:
Seriously, he was very small when he was a child. Can't help thinking that many British clubs would have kicked him out as a youngster cause he wasn't growing fast enough.
Too small. would never cut it in the SPL. :rofl:
Seriously, he was very small when he was a child. Can't help thinking that many British clubs would have kicked him out as a youngster cause he wasn't growing fast enough.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Re: Messi....
Dont forget tho, as good as he is, the fact he is playing in a quality side also has alot to do with it, you can be the best at anything in the world but when it comes down to team sports you need quality around you .. you could only do so much on your own
, stick him in the everton side see how he would go ..
Ronaldo has proved how good he is at 2 clubs & 2 leagues now , fabragas was prob the best player in the EPL , he is a good player in the spanish league ..
Would the best quarteback / scrum half / point guard / in the world win the trophys without quality around him ? no is the answer .. what would be intresting tho if Messi & ronaldo swoped clubs how do you think they would get on ? In saying that i do agree Messi is D best player i have ever seen play ..
Dont forget tho, as good as he is, the fact he is playing in a quality side also has alot to do with it, you can be the best at anything in the world but when it comes down to team sports you need quality around you .. you could only do so much on your own
, stick him in the everton side see how he would go ..
Ronaldo has proved how good he is at 2 clubs & 2 leagues now , fabragas was prob the best player in the EPL , he is a good player in the spanish league ..
Would the best quarteback / scrum half / point guard / in the world win the trophys without quality around him ? no is the answer .. what would be intresting tho if Messi & ronaldo swoped clubs how do you think they would get on ? In saying that i do agree Messi is D best player i have ever seen play ..
Liverbirdie
Ryder Cup Winner
Re: Messi....
Things have changed a lot since then tho Peter even the Berlin wall has come down... (Grumps)
I know, I believe they have even built a tunnel under the channel since.
No most have been in the last 20 years, Rome and heysel aside.
(sorry put it on the wrong thread).
Things have changed a lot since then tho Peter even the Berlin wall has come down... (Grumps)
I know, I believe they have even built a tunnel under the channel since.
No most have been in the last 20 years, Rome and heysel aside.
(sorry put it on the wrong thread).
D
Deleted member 1418
Guest
Impossible to say whether the Barcelona side of the last few years are the greatest ever, particularly as they have won fewer European Cups than the Real Madrid side of Di Stefano and Puskas and the Ajax side of Cruyff, but they certainly deserve to be put in that company.As for Messi, the best player by a country mile since Maradonna was in his prime, however the best ever? Not for me yet - it is still Pele as he had everything, pace, power, brilliant on either foot, and excellent in the air. Also he was instrumental in 3 of Brazil's World Cup wins and his goals to game ratio is just extraordinary. If you add in the fact that the game was a lot, lot tougher in his era and defenders could actually tackle, then it makes his achievements even greater.
A1ex
Head Pro
Re: Messi....
Messi is on a different level to Ronaldo. When he retires he'll be looking down on Maradona.
People say Messi needs to win the World Cup but Maradona never won the European Cup. That has always been the highest level of football in the world, since the 60's at least. Proper sides, not national sides where theres a mash up and lady luck plays a bigger role.
bladeplayer....Fabregas wasn't the best in the Premiership. He was up there but never the stand out player. He's done well for Barca this season anyway, on course for 20 goals and shows signs of having the touch, class of Xavi and Iniesta with a physical edge. He'll run the show in a season or so IMO.
Of the games Barca have lost/drawn they were the better side in. The problem is attitude in the lesser games. For the big games, they destroy everyone. In the smaller ones they don't have the same attitude and tempo. Theres no doubt they'll smash Real at the Nou Camp and I still think they could win La Liga. Real have got Valencia, Atletico away, Barca away, Sevilla and Bibao away in a run of 6 or so games. They will fall around the quarter finals and semi finals of the CL, so I expect points to be dropped.
If Barca can win all their games, they'll come close to winning the title.
Messi is on a different level to Ronaldo. When he retires he'll be looking down on Maradona.
People say Messi needs to win the World Cup but Maradona never won the European Cup. That has always been the highest level of football in the world, since the 60's at least. Proper sides, not national sides where theres a mash up and lady luck plays a bigger role.
bladeplayer....Fabregas wasn't the best in the Premiership. He was up there but never the stand out player. He's done well for Barca this season anyway, on course for 20 goals and shows signs of having the touch, class of Xavi and Iniesta with a physical edge. He'll run the show in a season or so IMO.
Of the games Barca have lost/drawn they were the better side in. The problem is attitude in the lesser games. For the big games, they destroy everyone. In the smaller ones they don't have the same attitude and tempo. Theres no doubt they'll smash Real at the Nou Camp and I still think they could win La Liga. Real have got Valencia, Atletico away, Barca away, Sevilla and Bibao away in a run of 6 or so games. They will fall around the quarter finals and semi finals of the CL, so I expect points to be dropped.
If Barca can win all their games, they'll come close to winning the title.
wolfie
Assistant Pro
Re: Messi....
What a performance lastnight, absolutely sublime. He is without a doubt the best player I have ever seen and probably ever will see. He is miles ahead of Ronaldo, doesnt come close. And he is only 24.
And people who say it is the team that make him look good, alot of rubbish, look how many goals he creates for himself and for other people. Everything runs through him, his vision and range of passing is unreal.
Unfortunately I never had the chance to see Pele play so cant compare the two players.
What a performance lastnight, absolutely sublime. He is without a doubt the best player I have ever seen and probably ever will see. He is miles ahead of Ronaldo, doesnt come close. And he is only 24.
And people who say it is the team that make him look good, alot of rubbish, look how many goals he creates for himself and for other people. Everything runs through him, his vision and range of passing is unreal.
Unfortunately I never had the chance to see Pele play so cant compare the two players.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Re: Messi....
So how come argentina arent winning all around them ? i didnt say the team made him look good the quality around him let him play to the best of his abilities , i also think if you watch Barca more often everything runs through xavi & inesta ( fabragas is starting to have a big role now aswell) messi is the finisher .. Barca defensivly are not as confident without puyol .. I even agreed in my reply he is the best ive ever seen but to say the remark about the team its alot of rubbish is very nieve .. so could messi win the CL with any other team currently .. man u ? chelsea ? arsenal ? celtic ? ..
So how come argentina arent winning all around them ? i didnt say the team made him look good the quality around him let him play to the best of his abilities , i also think if you watch Barca more often everything runs through xavi & inesta ( fabragas is starting to have a big role now aswell) messi is the finisher .. Barca defensivly are not as confident without puyol .. I even agreed in my reply he is the best ive ever seen but to say the remark about the team its alot of rubbish is very nieve .. so could messi win the CL with any other team currently .. man u ? chelsea ? arsenal ? celtic ? ..
wolfie
Assistant Pro
Re: Messi....
So you are trying to say messi is just a finisher, aye dead on.
Put him into any team and he would stand out a mile. He scores so many goals made by him alone.
I personally think that with Argentina he has the weight of the nation on his shoulders, he is surrounded by great players there aswell but i think it is a mental thing there because everybody is expecting him to win the world cup on his own. He built his way into the barca team but was threw into his country billed as the next Maradona and they would go on to win everything.
I would say any top team with messi would be hard to stop. And I think if you watched barca a bit more messi is instrumental in everything from the middle of the park to the 6 yard box. Yes he has great players around him but watching him is just a different class.
So you are trying to say messi is just a finisher, aye dead on.
Put him into any team and he would stand out a mile. He scores so many goals made by him alone.
I personally think that with Argentina he has the weight of the nation on his shoulders, he is surrounded by great players there aswell but i think it is a mental thing there because everybody is expecting him to win the world cup on his own. He built his way into the barca team but was threw into his country billed as the next Maradona and they would go on to win everything.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Re: Messi....
Didnt maradonna do that tho & he had the same pressure of expectation from Argentina , ok he didnt win the european cup (im fairly sure ) but he won in Argentina , won seria a & was the main reason argentina won the world cup , ok people talk about the hand of god goal against england but his second goal that day against england was pure class ..
Im not disagreeing with you that he is pure class he definatly is, but in team sports if whats around you aint good enough it doesnt matter how brilliant you are you wont win it on your own ..
Didnt maradonna do that tho & he had the same pressure of expectation from Argentina , ok he didnt win the european cup (im fairly sure ) but he won in Argentina , won seria a & was the main reason argentina won the world cup , ok people talk about the hand of god goal against england but his second goal that day against england was pure class ..
Im not disagreeing with you that he is pure class he definatly is, but in team sports if whats around you aint good enough it doesnt matter how brilliant you are you wont win it on your own ..
Piece
Tour Winner
Re: Messi....
Probably on my own here, but given a choice between Iniesta or Messi, I'd have Iniesta....
Probably on my own here, but given a choice between Iniesta or Messi, I'd have Iniesta....
wolfie
Assistant Pro
Re: Messi....
I would say there is alot more pressure and expectation on footballers shoulders nowadays. I see where you are coming from but we both agree he is an awesome talent. Fact!!!!
GreiginFife
Money List Winner
Re: Messi....
When we talk about the great team around Messi it's absolutely correct. Iniesta is a genius in his own right (and the palest Spaniard ever!), Xavi is a master and Puyol is probably the missing link
.
But, and it's a big but, I am a massive Barca fan (have been over several times including one Classico and was formerly a Pena member) and I watch nearly every game (Sky or Internet) and Barca without Messi are good, but nowhere near as ruthless and slick as they are with him on the pitch. The stats speak volumes of this (I think it's avg of 1.1 goals per game without and 3.1 goals with)...
When we talk about the great team around Messi it's absolutely correct. Iniesta is a genius in his own right (and the palest Spaniard ever!), Xavi is a master and Puyol is probably the missing link
. But, and it's a big but, I am a massive Barca fan (have been over several times including one Classico and was formerly a Pena member) and I watch nearly every game (Sky or Internet) and Barca without Messi are good, but nowhere near as ruthless and slick as they are with him on the pitch. The stats speak volumes of this (I think it's avg of 1.1 goals per game without and 3.1 goals with)...
Mr_T
Challenge Tour Pro
Re: Messi....
A1ex, Ronaldo scored more goals than messi last season, 53 in 49 games, that's mindblowing, I'd still have messi over Ronaldo though. I think pele is still the best, but by the time messi retires I doubt that will be the case still. It was only until midway through last season that I thought messi was the best, I uses to think it was Ronaldo, but it's his ability to change a game in a second, it's scary
A1ex, Ronaldo scored more goals than messi last season, 53 in 49 games, that's mindblowing, I'd still have messi over Ronaldo though. I think pele is still the best, but by the time messi retires I doubt that will be the case still. It was only until midway through last season that I thought messi was the best, I uses to think it was Ronaldo, but it's his ability to change a game in a second, it's scary
A1ex
Head Pro
Re: Messi....
Ronaldo will get 50 goals a season but he's lost that magic factor he had. He's more machine like now. In the big games, his record is poor compared to Messi. Ronaldo still has a good big game record compared to everyone else but Messi does it in almost every single big game. He makes a habit out of tearing Real and Valencia to pieces.
Messi is also way more than goals, he's a creator. He slips into midfield and looks every bit as classy and composed as Iniesta and Xavi.
I feel Pele was overrated. As Pep said last night 'Messi is on the same level as Maradona, Cryuf, Di Stefano and I better say Pele or he'll get angry' :rofl:
Ronaldo will get 50 goals a season but he's lost that magic factor he had. He's more machine like now. In the big games, his record is poor compared to Messi. Ronaldo still has a good big game record compared to everyone else but Messi does it in almost every single big game. He makes a habit out of tearing Real and Valencia to pieces.
Messi is also way more than goals, he's a creator. He slips into midfield and looks every bit as classy and composed as Iniesta and Xavi.
I feel Pele was overrated. As Pep said last night 'Messi is on the same level as Maradona, Cryuf, Di Stefano and I better say Pele or he'll get angry' :rofl:
Liverbirdie
Ryder Cup Winner
Re: Messi....
I think Ronaldo is also a fantastic footballer but loses marks for petulance, arrogance and is more selfish in his play. I also felt that he didn't play well against LFC, particularly, which should be one of his biggest games of the season (due to the rivalry).
Don't get me wrong, I was always worried before a game that he could tear us a new one, but he never really did, unlike Beckham, Giggs, Scholes etc. Has he not got a big game mentality?
I think Ronaldo is also a fantastic footballer but loses marks for petulance, arrogance and is more selfish in his play. I also felt that he didn't play well against LFC, particularly, which should be one of his biggest games of the season (due to the rivalry).
Don't get me wrong, I was always worried before a game that he could tear us a new one, but he never really did, unlike Beckham, Giggs, Scholes etc. Has he not got a big game mentality?
A1ex
Head Pro
Re: Messi....
Same could be said about Rooney against Liverpool aswell actually. Untill the last game at least...:mmm:
I think those games are more battles than great games of football, which probably holds back top players. Gerrard's record against Man Utd is poor aswell is it not?
Same could be said about Rooney against Liverpool aswell actually. Untill the last game at least...:mmm:
I think those games are more battles than great games of football, which probably holds back top players. Gerrard's record against Man Utd is poor aswell is it not?
Liverbirdie
Ryder Cup Winner
Re: Messi....
To be fair, probably needs more of a neutrals point of view.
Just off the top of my head though Gerrards goals v man U:-
2001 - 30-35 yard screamer past Barthez
2003 - Worthington cup final 25 yard, slighly deflected shot
last year 2 goals against them (pen and free kick)
This year, free kick goal
3-4 years ago I think he scored.
Maybe others also, buts that just talking goals, not necessarily performances.
Now if you said Gerrard against Chelsea, he as always been crap against Chelsea, Lampard always was for them too.
To be fair, probably needs more of a neutrals point of view.
Just off the top of my head though Gerrards goals v man U:-
2001 - 30-35 yard screamer past Barthez
2003 - Worthington cup final 25 yard, slighly deflected shot
last year 2 goals against them (pen and free kick)
This year, free kick goal
3-4 years ago I think he scored.
Maybe others also, buts that just talking goals, not necessarily performances.
Now if you said Gerrard against Chelsea, he as always been crap against Chelsea, Lampard always was for them too.
A1ex
Head Pro
Re: Messi....
To be fair that sums it up really. He went from 2003 to 2009 with about 1 goal and hardly any top performances. For one of the best midfielders in the world at the time and a player with a big game reputation (Istanbul, Cardiff etc) that was quite a poor record.
I recall Gerrard not scoring against Chelsea but being pretty key in some of those big CL games.
To be fair that sums it up really. He went from 2003 to 2009 with about 1 goal and hardly any top performances. For one of the best midfielders in the world at the time and a player with a big game reputation (Istanbul, Cardiff etc) that was quite a poor record.
I recall Gerrard not scoring against Chelsea but being pretty key in some of those big CL games.
