Ball moving on green

[3puttmaster]

Hi guys,

Need a little help with an incident that happened this morning.

Partner on the green had cleaned his ball and had removed the marker. He was practising his putting to the side of the ball when he accidentally hit the ball with a glancing blow and moved it, roughly about 6 inches to the side.

Now with the recent news that you can replace a ball without penalty if you accidentally move it when marking it, or move it accidentally when you have placed your putter behind it, what would be the ruling in this instance?

As it was a friendly game we allowed him to replace the ball without penalty which seems fair as it was obvious it wasn't intentional.

Any advice welcome......thanks in advance.

 

[DCB]

I'd say a one stroke penalty as per Rule 18-2 and the ball should be replaced and played from the original place.

 

[3puttmaster]

Yep, we contemplated that too but didn't see any difference between that and placing your putter behind the ball and accidentally moving it.

Although, in hindsight, I suppose the only difference is that he had actually made a stroke, even though it was a practice one and he wasn't intending to strike the ball.

 

[Region3]

Under the new (local) rule it wouldn't be a penalty, just replace it, but the local rule has to be put in place by the club.

Without the local rule you still replace it but as above, it's a 1 shot penalty.

 

[doublebogey7]

Under the new (local) rule it wouldn't be a penalty, just replace it, but the local rule has to be put in place by the club.

Without the local rule you still replace it but as above, it's a 1 shot penalty.

And the new local rule cannot come into play until 1 Jan 2017.

 

[rulefan]

This will tell you more

http://www.randa.org/News/2016/12/New-Local-Rule-for-Golf

 

[Foxholer]

Yep, we contemplated that too but didn't see any difference between that and placing your putter behind the ball and accidentally moving it.

Although, in hindsight, I suppose the only difference is that he had actually made a stroke, even though it was a practice one and he wasn't intending to strike the ball.

In which case, he hadn't made a stroke! See Definition of Stroke here http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253.

He's penalised under Rule 18.2 - Ball Moved - by Player, Partner, Caddie or equipment.

 

[atticusfinch]

Intentional vs accidental breach. This is an often-used distinction for not applying a penalty in a given case, usually in "friendly games." But you must keep in mind the purpose of most penalties is to adjust for a potential advantage gained by the player's action, not to punish bad behavior. The potential advantage is gained whether the action was intentional or accidental, so the penalty should be applied in either case.

 

[Slab]

Intentional vs accidental breach. This is an often-used distinction for not applying a penalty in a given case, usually in "friendly games." But you must keep in mind the purpose of most penalties is to adjust for a potential advantage gained by the player's action, not to punish bad behavior. The potential advantage is gained whether the action was intentional or accidental, so the penalty should be applied in either case.

Genuinely interested in what the potential advantage is by a ball that's accidentally moved through the green?

If as per the rule the ball must be replaced (to the lie as it was & without being cleaned) in my mind this negates any potential advantage. So whats the penalty stroke for?
I could understand if the ball wasn't replaced (so the potential for an advantage remains, although not a certainty) and the penalty needs to be added to address this

Maybe I'm just not devious enough to think of the advantage

 

[rulie]

Genuinely interested in what the potential advantage is by a ball that's accidentally moved through the green?

If as per the rule the ball must be replaced (to the lie as it was & without being cleaned) in my mind this negates any potential advantage. So whats the penalty stroke for?
I could understand if the ball wasn't replaced (so the potential for an advantage remains, although not a certainty) and the penalty needs to be added to address this

Maybe I'm just not devious enough to think of the advantage

Perhaps someone has over-generalized when generalizing on the principles of the Rules?

 

[atticusfinch]

So whats the penalty stroke for? I could understand if the ball wasn't replaced... and the penalty needs to be added to address this.

That's about right. The penalty acts as a deterrent. Without a penalty there is no incentive to replace the ball other than a cold stare from an opponent.

 

[rulefan]

So whats the penalty stroke for?

To ensure that you are careful not to 'accidentally' knock your ball significantly nearer the hole when taking a practice stroke.
There would be another penalty of course for not putting it back.

The first is the potential opportunity, the latter is the penalty for actually taking advantage of it.

 

[woody69]

I've got a friend that argues about the accidental movement of a ball on the green, or the incident with Dustin, where it moved such a small amount that the rule should just be replace and no penalty.

I do struggle to come up with a logical answer as to why the rule can't be to just replace it. Obviously no advantage is gained in doing that.

 

[Colin L]

I've got a friend that argues about the accidental movement of a ball on the green, or the incident with Dustin, where it moved such a small amount that the rule should just be replace and no penalty.

I do struggle to come up with a logical answer as to why the rule can't be to just replace it. Obviously no advantage is gained in doing that.

That will be resolved from Jan 2017 when, if the local rule is in place, you will replace without penalty.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Under the new (local) rule it wouldn't be a penalty, just replace it, but the local rule has to be put in place by the club.

Without the local rule you still replace it but as above, it's a 1 shot penalty.

It's a bit of a mess now isn't it?

If you move your ball with a practice stroke on the tee or the green - replace, no penalty
If you move your ballwith a practice swing anywhere else - replace, 1 shot penalty.

I appreciate they say the majority of incidents are on the green but if you were using a putter from the fringe and hit it by mistake you get penalised when a few inches away on the green you don't get penalised.

Should have just said that any accidental movement of the ball should b a replace without penalty.

 

[rulie]

It's a bit of a mess now isn't it?

If you move your ball with a practice stroke on the tee or the green - replace, no penalty
If you move your ballwith a practice swing anywhere else - replace, 1 shot penalty.

I appreciate they say the majority of incidents are on the green but if you were using a putter from the fringe and hit it by mistake you get penalised when a few inches away on the green you don't get penalised.

Should have just said that any accidental movement of the ball should b a replace without penalty.

Not in my opinion. There are many Rules that are specific to the putting green - this is just one more, and easy to remember and apply (provided the club/committee have implemented the local Rule). Maybe in the next revision it will become part of Rule 16 (Putting green).

Permitting a player to get his hands on the ball, without penalty, through the green leaves too many doors open for intentional improvement.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Not in my opinion. There are many Rules that are specific to the putting green - this is just one more, and easy to remember and apply (provided the club/committee have implemented the local Rule). Maybe in the next revision it will become part of Rule 16 (Putting green).

Permitting a player to get his hands on the ball, without penalty, through the green leaves too many doors open for intentional improvement.

If someone is going to cheat and improve their lie they probably will.

We are talking about accidentally moving their ball and then replacing it not seeking an advantage.

How many people do you know that call a penalty on themselves now when they move their ball when - for example - they tread on it while searching?

Better to apply the KISS principle, if you move it accidentally put it back and play on.

 

[atticusfinch]

There's a difference in gaining a potential advantage and seeking one. The rules do not differentiate between the two. The potential advantage is gained because the ball moved, not because the player sought an advantage.

 

[rulie]

If someone is going to cheat and improve their lie they probably will.

We are talking about accidentally moving their ball and then replacing it not seeking an advantage.

How many people do you know that call a penalty on themselves now when they move their ball when - for example - they tread on it while searching?

Better to apply the KISS principle, if you move it accidentally put it back and play on.

Nearly all the people I play with would assess themselves the one stroke penalty, otherwise they would be "cheating".
I could endure doing away with the penalty for accidentally moving a ball during search; the ball would need to be dropped in that situation since neither the spot nor the lie was known. But once it's found, be careful because any accidental movement will be a penalty.

 

[duncan mackie]

It's a bit of a mess now isn't it?

If you move your ball with a practice stroke on the tee or the green - replace, no penalty
If you move your ballwith a practice swing anywhere else - replace, 1 shot penalty.

I appreciate they say the majority of incidents are on the green but if you were using a putter from the fringe and hit it by mistake you get penalised when a few inches away on the green you don't get penalised.

Should have just said that any accidental movement of the ball should b a replace without penalty.

As posted previously, this would simply enable people to clean up around their ball (loose impediments) without risk (but at huge time cost to everyone) and take the game that much further from play the ball as it lies, and as you find it.

As you are already permitted to clean your ball on the green, the lie is presumed to be perfect (even if it isn't! ) and you aren't penalised moving the ball when moving a LI either; the new LR is actually more consistent with the existing rules than may otherwise be apparent at first glance.