Ball moving off tee

[Midnight]

Hi all played today in a normal knock around when on the 17th which is a par 3 over water .

Played off temp tee (mat), anyway I had begun my downswing and a fraction of a second before I hit the ball, the ball fell off the tee, I could not stop my downswing and connected with the ball and hit a cracking tee shot onto the green.(the ball would of been moving as I hit it)

I carried on and played the original ball , was this correct ? Or should I have replaced the ball on the tee with or without penalty ?

Cheers

Midnight..

 

[AmandaJR]

I'm pretty sure that's the right course of action and if you'd have duffed it then it would have been tough...

Await those more in the know though

 

[Colin L]

You were correct to carry on. There is no penalty for hitting a moving ball if it moves after you have begun your stroke. You can, however, be liable to a penalty for a ball that moves after address if it was already in play.

In your case, the ball on the tee is not in play until a stroke is made at it and there is no penalty for the ball moving after address. See Rule 11-3.

If you have addressed a ball in play, and it moves after you have begun the backward movement of the club for a stroke and you hit it, you would be liable to a one stroke penalty but would not be required to replace the ball. See Rule 18-2b

 

[MashieNiblick]

Useful to clarify this as I sometimes find that with mats the tee doesn't always go in the tee holder straight due to broken bits of tee and the mats themselves can be very unstable. I have been on one or two that are like standing on a trampoline and I have worried this might happen as I shift my weight to start the down swing.

You did well to make a good contact!

 

[Midnight]

Thanks to all for clearing that up.
Mashieniblick- the contact was fantastic and one of the best tee shots I have done , it was pure luck.

 

[Region3]

There is no penalty for hitting a moving ball if it moves after you have begun your stroke.

This is what I thought, but then you say...

If you have addressed a ball in play, and it moves after you have begun the backward movement of the club for a stroke and you hit it, you would be liable to a one stroke penalty

Are they not the same situation?

I guess I'm reading it wrong but for the life of me can't see what I'm not 'getting'.

 

[CMAC]

This is what I thought, but then you say...



Are they not the same situation?

I guess I'm reading it wrong but for the life of me can't see what I'm not 'getting'.

First is on the tee as the ball isn't in play until you make a stroke at it, second is 'ball in play'

 

[Foxholer]

Mashieniblick- the contact was fantastic and one of the best tee shots I have done , it was pure luck.

Not altogether sure whether this is pure luck or not. I've had similar happen twice - when I was committed to the the shot and strike was perfect. I think unconscious adjustment can work. Conscious adjustment, however, normally goes seriously haywire!

 

[Region3]

First is on the tee as the ball isn't in play until you make a stroke at it, second is 'ball in play'

Thanks, I've learned something new

 

[Colin L]

This is what I thought, but then you say...

Are they not the same situation?
I guess I'm reading it wrong but for the life of me can't see what I'm not 'getting'.

Perhaps I need to be clearer that we are talking here of two separate rules. It is maybe easier to look at them in turn.

1. First we look at hitting the moving ball which is Rule 14-5. You are not allowed to make a stroke at a moving ball and are penalised by loss of hole/2 strokes if you do - but there are exceptions, these two being relevant:
There is no penalty if you hit a moving ball
a)when a ball being put into play falls off a tee
b) when an addressed ball in play moves after you have begun the backswing for your stroke.
Midnight does not incur a penalty for hitting the moving ball.

2. Secondly, we have to look at a possible penalty for the ball moving after it has been addressed which is Rule 18-2b. If you have addressed your ball in play and it moves, it is normally deemed that you caused it to move - 1PS and replace the ball. So had Midnight been playing his second or subsequent shots, his ball would have been in play and he would have been penalised for causing his ball to move. Because, however, this was him on the tee putting the ball into play, there is no penalty for causing the ball to move (just the same as when you knock the ball off the tee when you address it , put it back and play it there is no penalty).

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The rule that I have always found wierd is that if, on the tee, you hit the ball with your practice swing there is no penalty and you can replay the shot. Leaves it open to abuse I think.

 

[duncan mackie]

The rule that I have always found wierd is that if, on the tee, you hit the ball with your practice swing there is no penalty and you can replay the shot. Leaves it open to abuse I think.

if by 'abuse' you mean cheating then the entire rules are open - it's a pre-requisite that the player enforces the rules on himself at the game.

in practice it's not open to much, it's normally obvious to anyone observing when a player accidentially hits his ball on the tee, in the same way as an airshot, accidentially hitting his ball on the fairway with his practice swing etc - although of course the latter examples are not without consequences!

 

[Colin L]

I can't see much opportunity for abuse here either. I am much more concerned about a guy I occasionally play with whose sense of his immediate environment is a tad lacking and who is more likely to hit me with his windmilling practice swings than a ball.

 

[Midnight]

You were correct to carry on. There is no penalty for hitting a moving ball if it moves after you have begun your stroke. You can, however, be liable to a penalty for a ball that moves after address if it was already in play.

In your case, the ball on the tee is not in play until a stroke is made at it and there is no penalty for the ball moving after address. See Rule 11-3.

If you have addressed a ball in play, and it moves after you have begun the backward movement of the club for a stroke and you hit it, you would be liable to a one stroke penalty but would not be required to replace the ball. See Rule 18-2b

This may be stupid but if I had duffed it into the water in the same circs, would it just be a normal water hazard penalty, or due to the fact that the only reason it has gone into the water is because the ball moved would I be able to play another from the same spot with no penalty ?
Thanks for clearing everything else up.

 

[Colin L]

This may be stupid but if I had duffed it into the water in the same circs, would it just be a normal water hazard penalty, or due to the fact that the only reason it has gone into the water is because the ball moved would I be able to play another from the same spot with no penalty ?
.

You want jam on both sides?

You hit the moving ball; you didn't get penalised because you had started your stroke; you didn't get penalised for an addressed ball moving because your ball wasn't in play; now you want a Mulligan from the water?

Play it as it lies.

 

[Midnight]

You want jam on both sides?

You hit the moving ball; you didn't get penalised because you had started your stroke; you didn't get penalised for an addressed ball moving because your ball wasn't in play; now you want a Mulligan from the water?

Play it as it lies.

It was worth a try

 

[Region3]

Perhaps I need to be clearer that we are talking here of two separate rules. It is maybe easier to look at them in turn.

1. First we look at hitting the moving ball which is Rule 14-5. You are not allowed to make a stroke at a moving ball and are penalised by loss of hole/2 strokes if you do - but there are exceptions, these two being relevant:
There is no penalty if you hit a moving ball
a)when a ball being put into play falls off a tee
b) when an addressed ball in play moves after you have begun the backswing for your stroke.
Midnight does not incur a penalty for hitting the moving ball.

2. Secondly, we have to look at a possible penalty for the ball moving after it has been addressed which is Rule 18-2b. If you have addressed your ball in play and it moves, it is normally deemed that you caused it to move - 1PS and replace the ball. So had Midnight been playing his second or subsequent shots, his ball would have been in play and he would have been penalised for causing his ball to move. Because, however, this was him on the tee putting the ball into play, there is no penalty for causing the ball to move (just the same as when you knock the ball off the tee when you address it , put it back and play it there is no penalty).

Sorry be be again with this but I just want to make sure I understand. The second quote from my post #6 is what goes against what I thought.

Maybe an example would be best. This actually happened to a forumer in the Golf Monthly vs Golf Magic match at Forest Pines a couple of years ago.

Player on the green putting. He addresses the ball and begins his stroke. On his backswing the ball moves a little but he carries on and hits the putt. Should there be a penalty applied?

We played no penalty as we read the rule as meaning no penalty if the ball moves after the backswing has started and the stroke is completed.

If the player on his backswing noticed the ball move and stopped the stroke I assume then that a penalty be applied and the ball replaced?

 

[duncan mackie]

Player on the green putting. He addresses the ball and begins his stroke. On his backswing the ball moves a little but he carries on and hits the putt. Should there be a penalty applied?

We played no penalty as we read the rule as meaning no penalty if the ball moves after the backswing has started and the stroke is completed.

If the player on his backswing noticed the ball move and stopped the stroke I assume then that a penalty be applied and the ball replaced?

as Colin has set out - there are two rules in play in this situation -

1. rule 18 - ball at rest moved
2. rule 14 - striking the ball (specifically 14-5 playing a moving ball)

in your example
1. there is a breach of 18-2 because the player is deemed to have caused the ball to move, but because he has started his backswing and the stroke was completed, the rule does not require the ball to be replaced.
2. there is no breach of 14-5 because the player has started his backswing

Your last question - yes.

 

[Region3]

as Colin has set out - there are two rules in play in this situation -

1. rule 18 - ball at rest moved
2. rule 14 - striking the ball (specifically 14-5 playing a moving ball)

in your example
1. there is a breach of 18-2 because the player is deemed to have caused the ball to move, but because he has started his backswing and the stroke was completed, the rule does not require the ball to be replaced.
2. there is no breach of 14-5 because the player has started his backswing

Your last question - yes.

Got it now, thanks.

Hypothetically then.....

I understand how that you can be deemed to have caused the movement if the ball moves when you set the club down behind it, but if the ball only starts to move after the stroke has started (and therefore the club isn't near the ball) is it still the case that it's deemed to be caused by the player?

 

[duncan mackie]

Got it now, thanks.

Hypothetically then.....

I understand how that you can be deemed to have caused the movement if the ball moves when you set the club down behind it, but if the ball only starts to move after the stroke has started (and therefore the club isn't near the ball) is it still the case that it's deemed to be caused by the player?

In the absence of knowledge, or virtual certainty, that it was something else that caused it to move - yes