Ball moving in rough on backswing

[Deleted member 25575]

Quick question, which I think the answer to is - That’s a penalty stroke, but wanted to ask anyway.

A week or so ago I was playing in just a bounce game with a friend, not a comp, no money on the line just a hit and giggle. I’d managed to top a drive into the rough some 30 yards in front of the tee, the ball was sat up in the rough I placed my club behind the ball and it didn’t move at that point, however, when I started my backswing it did, I carried on with the shot and advanced the the ball down the fairway.
Talking to my friend I asked if he thought that would be a penalty if in a comp. We both thought it would but were not sure.
I didn’t know if as it only started moving during my swing and I carried on with the swing was it effectively counted as a normal shot no penalty, as I’m Not sure at what point in the swing the ball is allowed to move, if that makes sense.
It wasn’t a double hit as my club didn’t make contact with the ball, just the take away brushing the thick rough it was sat up in that made it move.
Thanks as always for any help

 

[jim8flog]

The main thing you have to decide is what caused it to move.

It is only a penalty if you decide you caused it move.
E.g. Although delayed, was the act of placing the club behind the ball what caused it to move.


Rule 9.1

b. What to Do When Ball Moves During Backswing or Stroke
If a player’s ball at rest begins moving after the player has begun the stroke or the backswing for a stroke and the player goes on to make the stroke:
• The ball must not be replaced, no matter what caused it to move.
• Instead, the player must play the ball from where it comes to rest after the stroke.
• If the player caused the ball to move, see Rule 9.4b to find out if there is a penalty.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

Nope I had the club behind the ball for a few seconds and the ball didn’t move, only at the point I took the club away in the backswing did it move

 

[Swango1980]

Nope I had the club behind the ball for a few seconds and the ball didn’t move, only at the point I took the club away in the backswing did it move

I'd say you caused it to move, that seems most likely. Unless there was a big gust of wind? It sounds like the act of you moving the club backwards disturbed the grass, thus making the ball move?

 

[Deleted member 25575]

I most definitely did cause it to move, but as part of the stroke, not addressing the ball

 

[jim8flog]

One of the bits of advice I was given and have followed through the years is to not ground the club behind the ball when it is in the rough as it takes away any arguement of whether or not the act of grounding the club is what caused the ball to move.

The ball moving when it is grounded is not the only cause of the moving after placing the club there. You may have caused just a single blade of grass to keep the ball in position and when you start your backswing that single blade of grass may no longer hold up the ball hence you have caused the ball to move.

 

[Whereditgo]

I most definitely did cause it to move, but as part of the stroke, not addressing the ball

Sort of answered your own question here, and as none of the exceptions under 9.4b apply it's a 1 stroke penalty.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

Thanks everyone I suspected as much.
I guess I just wasn’t sure at what point in the swing the ball was permitted to move, if that makes sense.

 

[rulefan]

I most definitely did cause it to move, but as part of the stroke, not addressing the ball

Taking the club back away from the ball is not part of the stroke.
Definition:
The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

Perfect that clears everything up thanks

 

[Jason.H]

I tend to hover my club head so this rarely happens. It’s harsh if it moves 5mm, do you call that?

 

[rulie]

I tend to hover my club head so this rarely happens. It’s harsh if it moves 5mm, do you call that?

Of course.

 

[rulefan]

I tend to hover my club head so this rarely happens. It’s harsh if it moves 5mm, do you call that?

Unless something else could be identified as causing it.
The Rules recognize only four possible causes for a ball at rest that moves before the player makes a stroke:

Natural forces, such as wind or water (see Rule 9.3),
The player, including the player’s caddie (see Rule 9.4),
The opponent in match play, including the opponent’s caddie (see Rule 9.5), or
An outside influence, including any other player in stroke play (see Rule 9.6).

If it is not known or virtually certain that at least one of these was the cause, the ball is treated as having been moved by natural forces.

 

[Beezerk]

Taking the club back away from the ball is not part of the stroke.
Definition:
The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

So if the ball moved on OP's downswing it wouldn't have been a penalty?

 

[Colin L]

So if the ball moved on OP's downswing it wouldn't have been a penalty?

It doesn't matter whether the ball moves before a swing, during the backswing or during the downswing, if the player accidentally causes a movement of his ball in play anywhere other than on the putting green and without being allowed to by a Rule, there is a penalty.

 

[jim8flog]

So if the ball moved on OP's downswing it wouldn't have been a penalty?

See post #2

 

[salfordlad]

It doesn't matter whether the ball moves before a swing, during the backswing or during the downswing, if the player accidentally causes a movement of his ball in play anywhere other than on the putting green and without being allowed to by a Rule, there is a penalty.

Agree, that is what the rule says. In reality, it is not very easy to accidentally move your ball during the downswing in a way that gets the 9.4b penalty but Stroke/1 mentions one possibility - clubhead separates from the club during downswing, player successfully stops the downswing short of the ball, but the clubhead moves the ball. This is no penalty in the teeing area, but is if the ball was in play - this is the old D14/4 for the historians.
As well as Colin's putting green reference, there is also an exception for accidentally moving your ball in play in the teeing area (when ball has managed to return to the teeing area).
I also have another interesting ruling in this space. Player hits way fat, missing the ball, but the divot moves the ball. Ruling: stroke counts but no penalty and play as lies.

 

[apj0524]

interesting read, but what is considered the ball moving, if it rocks but goes back to its original resting position is that movement or its is movement away from its original resting place?

 

[rulefan]

interesting read, but what is considered the ball moving, if it rocks but goes back to its original resting position is that movement or its is movement away from its original resting place?

It's in the Definition.

Moved
When your ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot, and this can be seen by the naked eye (whether or not anyone actually sees it do so).

This applies whether your ball has gone up, down or horizontally in any direction away from its original spot.

If your ball only wobbles (sometimes referred to as oscillating) and stays on or returns to its original spot, your ball has not moved.

 

[apj0524]

It's in the Definition.

Moved
When your ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot, and this can be seen by the naked eye (whether or not anyone actually sees it do so).

This applies whether your ball has gone up, down or horizontally in any direction away from its original spot.

If your ball only wobbles (sometimes referred to as oscillating) and stays on or returns to its original spot, your ball has not moved.

Thanks