ball marker

[waynedooley]

if I mark my ball on putting green and say to my partner (either doubles partner or someone I am playing with/against) 'is my marker ok there?' and they say 'that is fine that helps with my line'. are we both liable to the General Penalty if I subsequently don't move my marker?

 

[Orikoru]

What general penalty??

 

[IanM]

Not as far as I know.... you’ve marked it conventionally, whether it helps or hinders is immaterial

 

[waynedooley]

general Penalty would be 2 shots. The rule 15.3 regarding ball marker is somewhat ambiguous because it refers to leaving a ball on the green as and aid - and therefore implies the same for a ball marker.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It has always been the case that the act of placing a marker anywhere on the green might give me some help if I choose to use it. I will be asked - 'is that marker OK there?' - if I wish to use it as an aid to my line then so be it and I will say it's OK to be left. The marker was not placed as a result of me choosing my line. That would be a different matter.

 

[Swango1980]

Rule 15.3c suggests that both players will get a 2 shot penalty.

The player about to putt has acknowledged the marker will help his line, and the marker has been left in place. Rule 15.3c states "a ball-marker MUST be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot". If MUST is associated with moved, then it has to be moved and if not, both players are in breach. Although, if MUST is associated with how the new spot is measured in relation to the original spot, then maybe the marker does not have to be moved?

The rule also stated that the penalty applies if a player makes his stroke before the marker is moved and after they are aware that the another player was intending to move it, or if a player refuses to move their marker when required to do so and a stroke is then made by a player whose play might have been helped or interfered with.

So, I'm normally pretty good at interpreting the rules, so my initial answer is a 2 shot penalty for both as it was clear that is was assisting the players putt (if both players were aware they were breaking the rule, DQ for both).

The reason why I am uneasy with this is that, you could argue that a players line is assisted by ball markers many times a round, if there is a ball marker vaguely in their line, especially on breaking putts. So, maybe the penalty only applies once a player openly admits that the marker is helping them?

 

[YandaB]

Rule 15.3c suggests that both players will get a 2 shot penalty.

The player about to putt has acknowledged the marker will help his line, and the marker has been left in place. Rule 15.3c states "a ball-marker MUST be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot". If MUST is associated with moved, then it has to be moved and if not, both players are in breach. Although, if MUST is associated with how the new spot is measured in relation to the original spot, then maybe the marker does not have to be moved?

The rule also stated that the penalty applies if a player makes his stroke before the marker is moved and after they are aware that the another player was intending to move it, or if a player refuses to move their marker when required to do so and a stroke is then made by a player whose play might have been helped or interfered with.

So, I'm normally pretty good at interpreting the rules, so my initial answer is a 2 shot penalty for both as it was clear that is was assisting the players putt (if both players were aware they were breaking the rule, DQ for both).

The reason why I am uneasy with this is that, you could argue that a players line is assisted by ball markers many times a round, if there is a ball marker vaguely in their line, especially on breaking putts. So, maybe the penalty only applies once a player openly admits that the marker is helping them?

I usually get the interpretation wrong :-( In this case, I read the rule as saying you have 2 options if the marker might help or interfere, either or none of which you may use. The subsequent line where it state "MUST be moved" to me is the process for how a marker is moved, ie if you choose one of the options then the movement must be measured.

 

[Swango1980]

Yandabrown, you may be correct, as there are too many occasions in which subjectively a ball marker may assist a player line up their putt. My main confusion was that, just before this rule, Rule 15.3a states that if players agree to leave a ball in place to help any player, they both get a penalty. In the interpretations, it even goes on to say that, if a player asks another to leave a ball in place as it is acting as a back stop for their chip, both players bet the penalty, even if the player who would have marked the ball was not aware that this is not allowed. So, I felt the same logic might apply if a player openly admits a ball marker is assisting their play, although admittedly it doesn't include the statement "if both players agree..." like 15.3a.

I can see why the original poster asked the question.

 

[Orikoru]

I have never heard of people getting a penalty for using someone's ball-marker as an aiming help. I've heard people say stuff like that all the time. "shall I move my marker?" "no it's ok I'm aiming to putt around it on the left" or "no it's fine there, gives me something to aim at!" etc.

 

[Colin L]

Rule 15.3c suggests that both players will get a 2 shot penalty.

The player about to putt has acknowledged the marker will help his line, and the marker has been left in place. Rule 15.3c states "a ball-marker MUST be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot". If MUST is associated with moved, then it has to be moved and if not, both players are in breach. Although, if MUST is associated with how the new spot is measured in relation to the original spot, then maybe the marker does not have to be moved?

The rule also stated that the penalty applies if a player makes his stroke before the marker is moved and after they are aware that the another player was intending to move it, or if a player refuses to move their marker when required to do so and a stroke is then made by a player whose play might have been helped or interfered with.

So, I'm normally pretty good at interpreting the rules, so my initial answer is a 2 shot penalty for both as it was clear that is was assisting the players putt (if both players were aware they were breaking the rule, DQ for both).

The reason why I am uneasy with this is that, you could argue that a players line is assisted by ball markers many times a round, if there is a ball marker vaguely in their line, especially on breaking putts. So, maybe the penalty only applies once a player openly admits that the marker is helping them?

15.3c tells us that a player may lift his own ball marker or require another player to lift his if he thinks it could interfere or help with play. It then goes on to tell us the procedure which must be followed if a marker has to be moved. In the OP's question, the player whose marker is on the green has not decided to move it and the other player has not required it to be moved. 15.3c doesn't apply.

Think of the number of times a ball marker is on or near another player's line of play. If the player says it's ok as it is, he has not breached a rule. He may require it to be moved, but doesn't have to. The rule is generally a permissive one - allowing a player to get a ball or ball marker out of his way if it is interfering or to prevent another player getting help from it. The only penalty involved is for a player who does not do as he is required.

It should also be noted that the penalty for agreeing in stroke play to leave a helping ball in place is for a ball only: it does not apply to a ball marker. The concern is obviously that a ball at rest can significantly affect a moving ball by stopping or deflecting it to a player's advantage. There is presumably no similar concern for a ball marker.

 

[Swango1980]

15.3c tells us that a player may lift his own ball marker or require another player to lift his if he thinks it could interfere or help with play. It then goes on to tell us the procedure which must be followed if a marker has to be moved. In the OP's question, the player whose marker is on the green has not decided to move it and the other player has not required it to be moved. 15.3c doesn't apply.

Think of the number of times a ball marker is on or near another player's line of play. If the player says it's ok as it is, he has not breached a rule. He may require it to be moved, but doesn't have to. The rule is generally a permissive one - allowing a player to get a ball or ball marker out of his way if it is interfering or to prevent another player getting help from it. The only penalty involved is for a player who does not do as he is required.

It should also be noted that the penalty for agreeing in stroke play to leave a helping ball in place is for a ball only: it does not apply to a ball marker. The concern is obviously that a ball at rest can significantly affect a moving ball by stopping or deflecting it to a player's advantage. There is presumably no similar concern for a ball marker.

I agree, as alluding to in Comment #8. It's just that it mentioned "HELP or interfere with play" in Rule 15.3c. So, I suppose the only way a player could be in breach of this rule if a marker is HELPING, is if the other player (whose ball marker it is) believes that the marker is helping, and therefore intends to re-mark it. If the player putts before they re-mark it, but knew they were intending to re-mark it, then they will get a penalty according to the first bullet point under the penalty? But, if the player taking the putt is unaware that the player is going to re-mark it, then no penalty, even if both players acknowledge that the marker is helping the to line up the putt.

I guess a really pedantic person could, in theory, claim that their marker is helping someones line of putt anytime it is vaguely is their line and re-mark. Then, as soon as the player putts before waiting for this to happen (probably out of impatience), then the pedantic player can issue a penalty as the putting player did not wait even though they were aware the player intended to re-mark their ball. I know it's unlikely, unless the pedantic player truly wants to be the most hated player at the club.

 

[CliveW]

What general penalty??

See Rule 1.3

"General Penalty: Loss of hole in Match Play and a two stroke penalty in Stroke Play."