Ball Landing In Divot

[mikejohnchapman]

The words scrape, scraped or scrapes only appear in the 2019 Rules 4 times. Not one is related to animals.

The only relevant references are two mentions of 'animal holes' defined as:

Animal Hole
Any hole dug in the ground by an animal, except for holes dug by animals that are also defined as loose impediments (such as worms or insects).
The term animal hole includes:
• The loose material the animal dug out of the hole,
• Any worn-down track or trail leading into the hole, and
• Any area on the ground pushed up or altered as a result of the animal digging the hole underground.

So animal footprints don't count?

I guess they will on the greens from 2019 - we had some deer who wear hobnail boots by the look of it.

 

[rulefan]

So animal footprints don't count?

I guess they will on the greens from 2019 - we had some deer who wear hobnail boots by the look of it.

Although the wearers of the boots may be animals (ie humans), did they dig the holes.

 

[jim8flog]

Although the wearers of the boots may be animals (ie humans), did they dig the holes.

Under the 2019 definitions of an animal, humans are specificly excluded.

Apologies for the word scrapes but I was more highlighting that the word burrowing has been deleted.

 

[clubchamp98]

How long was the seeded divot classed as GUR?

Not sure of context?

It was the rule when I joined but lasted one season
Local rule was if any seed was visible it was GUR / No seed visible play as it lies.

Heard a story one member was caught with seed in his bag just in case.?

 

[rulefan]

I do wonder how many fairways some on here hit.
I have never been in an animal burrow or similar on the fairway , but have been in many divots!

Just one thing when I joined my club they had a local rule that if you landed in a seeded divot it was classed as GUR as the green keepers had worked to fill the hole.
This was stopped by the RA but we were never really told the main reason for this.

Anyone enlighten me please?

I assume that the R&A told the club that it was an unauthorised local rule. They may also have warned them it would breach the handicapping rules.

 

[clubchamp98]

I assume that the R&A told the club that it was an unauthorised local rule. They may also have warned them it would breach the handicapping rules.

yes I get this but it dosnt explain Why?
Seeded divot is a small area worked on by green staff as much as a large area !

 

[rulefan]

yes I get this but it dosnt explain Why?
Seeded divot is a small area worked on by green staff as much as a large area !

As a starter, GUR is a subset of Abnormal Ground Condition. What is abnormal about a divot hole on a golf course? Your statement that you land in many of them suggests they are not.


But a thought to be considered.

Many situations occur in golf which would appear to merit special consideration. When a ball is in a divot hole in the fairway or a
foot print in a bunker, the player is suffering from the carelessness of someone else and would seem to be entitled to relief. Quite correctly, the Rules do not accord any more consideration to these situations than to the player who finds his ball in an equally difficult position created by nature, course condition or any other cause. Chance has brought the player’s ball into an unfavorable position and he must do his best to overcome the obstacle.

Golf, like life itself, leads those who play it into many situations that appear to be unfair. The successful golfer rises to the occasion and refuses to give way to fate or frustration. As can be seen, the so-called equity rule will lead to difficulty if applied with the idea of seeking a just solution in the light of the circumstances surrounding the individual case. The penalty for a Rule of golf is not adjusted to fit the attendant circumstances. The answer lies rather in defining analogous situations and according them all the same treatment.

The approach is not whether “this particular situation is unfair to me,” but rather whether “others in a similar situation and I in mine are treated alike under the Rules.”

 

[backwoodsman]

As a starter, GUR is a subset of Abnormal Ground Condition. What is abnormal about a divot hole on a golf course? Your statement that you land in many of them suggests they are not.


But a thought to be considered.

Many situations occur in golf which would appear to merit special consideration. When a ball is in a divot hole in the fairway or a
foot print in a bunker, the player is suffering from the carelessness of someone else and would seem to be entitled to relief. Quite correctly, the Rules do not accord any more consideration to these situations than to the player who finds his ball in an equally difficult position created by nature, course condition or any other cause. Chance has brought the player’s ball into an unfavorable position and he must do his best to overcome the obstacle.

Golf, like life itself, leads those who play it into many situations that appear to be unfair. The successful golfer rises to the occasion and refuses to give way to fate or frustration. As can be seen, the so-called equity rule will lead to difficulty if applied with the idea of seeking a just solution in the light of the circumstances surrounding the individual case. The penalty for a Rule of golf is not adjusted to fit the attendant circumstances. The answer lies rather in defining analogous situations and according them all the same treatment.

The approach is not whether “this particular situation is unfair to me,” but rather whether “others in a similar situation and I in mine are treated alike under the Rules.”

An interesting, and indeed an apposite, quote!

Care to share from where it comes? (It reads as if one ought to know?)

 

[rulie]

yes I get this but it dosnt explain Why?
Seeded divot is a small area worked on by green staff as much as a large area !

At our course, we are encouraged to carry bottles of sand+seed mixture to fill divot holes left by inconsiderate others. We are not part of the green staff. Would these be different?
An area "worked on by green staff" is not ground under repair unless it meets the definition of ground under repair or is so marked by the Committee or a representative of the Committee.

 

[rulefan]

An interesting, and indeed an apposite, quote!

Care to share from where it comes? (It reads as if one ought to know?)

The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf. Richard S Tufts.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Although the wearers of the boots may be animals (ie humans), did they dig the holes.

Joking apart we do get a lot of deer hoof prints on our greens in winter when they get very wet. I'm presuming from next year you will be able to repair these if they are on your line.

 

[atticusfinch]

The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf. Richard S Tufts.

MUST reading for anyone seeking to understand the rules.

 

[atticusfinch]

yes I get this but it dosnt explain Why?
Seeded divot is a small area worked on by green staff as much as a large area !

GUR is a hole made by a greenskeeper, not an "area he works on." Divot holes are made by players, anyway.

Ground under repair includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so marked

 

[drdel]

As a starter, GUR is a subset of Abnormal Ground Condition. What is abnormal about a divot hole on a golf course? Your statement that you land in many of them suggests they are not.


But a thought to be considered.

Many situations occur in golf which would appear to merit special consideration. When a ball is in a divot hole in the fairway or a
foot print in a bunker, the player is suffering from the carelessness of someone else and would seem to be entitled to relief. Quite correctly, the Rules do not accord any more consideration to these situations than to the player who finds his ball in an equally difficult position created by nature, course condition or any other cause. Chance has brought the player’s ball into an unfavorable position and he must do his best to overcome the obstacle.

Golf, like life itself, leads those who play it into many situations that appear to be unfair. The successful golfer rises to the occasion and refuses to give way to fate or frustration. As can be seen, the so-called equity rule will lead to difficulty if applied with the idea of seeking a just solution in the light of the circumstances surrounding the individual case. The penalty for a Rule of golf is not adjusted to fit the attendant circumstances. The answer lies rather in defining analogous situations and according them all the same treatment.

The approach is not whether “this particular situation is unfair to me,” but rather whether “others in a similar situation and I in mine are treated alike under the Rules.”

While entirely accurate IMO the pedantry needed to explain a simple issue of a ball in a small man-made divot on a fairway is an example of how 'policing the game has evolved and the numerous rules, sub-rules and 'decision's of the RoG may well be an indicator of why its popularity is in decline in the modern world.

In all reality; if a player moves the ball to one or other side of a divot on a 150yd shot please tell me what massive advantage he/she has gained give the very low probability of landing in it in the first place. Golf is a game to be enjoyed with integrity lets get on and enjoy it.

 

[clubchamp98]

As a starter, GUR is a subset of Abnormal Ground Condition. What is abnormal about a divot hole on a golf course? Your statement that you land in many of them suggests they are not.


But a thought to be considered.

Many situations occur in golf which would appear to merit special consideration. When a ball is in a divot hole in the fairway or a
foot print in a bunker, the player is suffering from the carelessness of someone else and would seem to be entitled to relief. Quite correctly, the Rules do not accord any more consideration to these situations than to the player who finds his ball in an equally difficult position created by nature, course condition or any other cause. Chance has brought the player’s ball into an unfavorable position and he must do his best to overcome the obstacle.

Golf, like life itself, leads those who play it into many situations that appear to be unfair. The successful golfer rises to the occasion and refuses to give way to fate or frustration. As can be seen, the so-called equity rule will lead to difficulty if applied with the idea of seeking a just solution in the light of the circumstances surrounding the individual case. The penalty for a Rule of golf is not adjusted to fit the attendant circumstances. The answer lies rather in defining analogous situations and according them all the same treatment.

The approach is not whether “this particular situation is unfair to me,” but rather whether “others in a similar situation and I in mine are treated alike under the Rules.”

Great reply but a footprint in a bunker (man made) is just bad luck ! So how come a lolly stick made of wood or cigarette stub ( man made) can be moved but a twig stick can’t as it’s natural.?

A ciggy stump is nowhere near as bad as a footprint just seems a bit hit and miss and it’s why a lot of people get confused with the rules.

 

[jim8flog]

I do wonder how many fairways some on here hit.
I have never been in an animal burrow or similar on the fairway , but have been in many divots!

Just one thing when I joined my club they had a local rule that if you landed in a seeded divot it was classed as GUR as the green keepers had worked to fill the hole.
This was stopped by the RA but we were never really told the main reason for this.

Anyone enlighten me please?

[h=2]33-8/34[/h] [h=4]Relief from Divot Holes[/h] Q.May a Committee make a Local Rule providing relief without penalty from divot holes or repaired divot holes (e.g., holes that have been filled with sand and/or seed mix)?

A.No. Such a Local Rule would modify Rule 13-1 and is not authorized.

 

[jim8flog]

Great reply but a footprint in a bunker (man made) is just bad luck ! So how come a lolly stick made of wood or cigarette stub ( man made) can be moved but a twig stick can’t as it’s natural.?

A ciggy stump is nowhere near as bad as a footprint just seems a bit hit and miss and it’s why a lot of people get confused with the rules.

It's all about the definition of an obstruction. They have to make some sort of definition that is easily understood so anything man made including objects made from 'natural' materials are classed as obstructions (unless otherwise defined such as equipment).

 

[clubchamp98]

At our course, we are encouraged to carry bottles of sand+seed mixture to fill divot holes left by inconsiderate others. We are not part of the green staff. Would these be different?
An area "worked on by green staff" is not ground under repair unless it meets the definition of ground under repair or is so marked by the Committee or a representative of the Committee.

yes but aren’t you just doing it because the greens staff are busy elsewhere.
Its still a repair to the course whoever fills it.
It keeps the course in better condition so is a good thing.

We get the scouts to come do ours we give them free lessons and a donation.
They do a great job and we have some really good players from the group join the club it’s a win win for us both.

I am not being awkward here I just want to know the reason why this came into being as it seems very unfair to be hindered by someone else’s divot.

By the way it’s not always careless golfers I have seen the birds remove divots looking for worms.

 

[oltimer]

Why do some expect a perfect lie everytime, if no massive advantage is gained by moving it out of divot then why bother moving it ?
The game is played on field albeit manicured, if they want a perfect lie every time then try snooker or bowls, in golf you hit the ball see how it lies then either play it or apply a rule, ie declare it unplayable.

 

[jim8flog]

Joking apart we do get a lot of deer hoof prints on our greens in winter when they get very wet. I'm presuming from next year you will be able to repair these if they are on your line.

Your club is allowed to have a local rule allowing you to repair them

[h=2]33-8/32[/h] [h=4]Local Rule for Animal Hoof Damage[/h] Q.A Committee may, by Local Rule, declare damage that is clearly identifiable as having been caused by animal hoofs to be ground under repair. However, if there is a strong possibility that animals may cause hoof damage to putting greens, and the extent of the damage could make it impracticable to take relief under Rule 25-1b(iii), what may the Committee do?

A.Rather than treating such damage to the putting green as ground under repair, the Committee may make a Local Rule permitting the repair of such damage on the putting green.

The following Local Rule would be recommended in such circumstances: "Other than on the putting green, damage that is clearly identifiable as having been caused by animal hoofs is ground under repair (Rule 25-1 applies).

Such damage on the putting green may be repaired (Rule 25-1 does not apply)." (New)