Ball Found Not In Water

[Crazyface]

I think we got this right on Sunday, but I'll post this to see to clarify and see what others would have done.

First tee. I hit a screamer, I usually do off the first, but this time it went like a missile towards the tree lined river on the left, without the usual fade back in. I watched it's flight intently, willing it back, but to no avail it disappeared into the trees at the 150 marker without a thunk like it would had it hit a tree and then shot off somewhere random. I walked to that point and had a quick look in case it dropped straight down, but saw nothing. I took a drop and chunked it towards the green. As I walked towards the green I found my first ball and a felt that little pain of joy that you do in this situation, brilliant. Then stop. Hmmm what's the ruling? So we (the four of us) had a chat about it. Sure I could have got my rule book out, but where's the fun in that? So we, decided, well only one actually came up with what I thought seemed like the correct idea, so I proceeded under his idea. Which was? Well, by dropping a ball and then playing it, I'd put that ball into play. I wasn't playing a provisional ball , I was playing a ball I'd put into play. This seemed the right idea.

1. So was this right? I still not certain, and if we were
2. Could I have actually dropped a ball at the point of entry and called it a provisional and then if I had found my ball could I have then played my first ball?

 

[Kellfire]

Yes you were right and you can't take a provisional for a penalty stroke.

 

[Imurg]

We had a similar episode a few weeks back.
Fragger was playing the 6th via the scenic route (the 5th) and had to play over a large patch of deep rough from a partially unsighted spot.
Standing by the green we didn't see his shot at all, he was convinced that it finished in the rough so we hunted to no avail.
Fragger walked back and played another which cleared the rough.
On walking up, he found his first, fairly close to where his 2nd finished.
Harsh, but he couldn't play it.
At least he didn't actually lose the ball.....

 

[Slab]

OP:

You would’ve had to know or be virtually certain the ball was in the river (hazard) in order to make a drop in the first place (if not then dropping not an option without finding the ball and its back to the tee instead)

If you know or are virtually certain your ball is in the river, how then can you justify/decide to hit your dropped ball as a provisional (whats the point in it being a provisional, your ball is in the river!)

i.e If you thought your ball might be found farther down then you didn’t know & can’t be virtually certain that it’s in the river, so you shouldn't have dropped

I think that's right but sure someone will correct an error

 

[louise_a]

Seems to me like you were just assuming that the ball was in the water without being virtually certain, that being so you should have gone back and played 3 off the tee, when you could not find the ball

 

[Crazyface]

OP:

You would’ve had to know or be virtually certain the ball was in the river (hazard) in order to make a drop in the first place (if not then dropping not an option without finding the ball and its back to the tee instead)

If you know or are virtually certain your ball is in the river, how then can you justify/decide to hit your dropped ball as a provisional (whats the point in it being a provisional, your ball is in the river!)

i.e If you thought your ball might be found farther down then you didn’t know & can’t be virtually certain that it’s in the river, so you shouldn't have dropped

I think that's right but sure someone will correct an error

Hah ha!!!! (Highlighted) This is the bit I was waiting for. Well I agree with you, but on this occasion I watched my ball intently as I knew it was going in and wanted to know where I going to have to drop, I usually see the direction, shout a naughty word and look away, it flew into the trees and I did not see it come out, or hear it hit anything wooden as I was "virtually certain" it was in there.

 

[Crazyface]

I think in future, in this situation, I will hit a provi!

 

[Slab]

Hah ha!!!! (Highlighted) This is the bit I was waiting for. Well I agree with you, but on this occasion I watched my ball intently as I knew it was going in and wanted to know where I going to have to drop, I usually see the direction, shout a naughty word and look away, it flew into the trees and I did not see it come out, or hear it hit anything wooden as I was "virtually certain" it was in there.

No worries, its just that in my imagination I'm seeing a tree lined river with the ball heading into the trees (not over them)

Unless they're pretty gappy, that line of trees is gonna make virtual certainty a real tough call at any time

 

[Foxholer]

I think in future, in this situation, I will hit a provi!

There's a bit of a problem with that approach too - at least, if you subsequently wish to claim that the ball is in the WH!

A Provisional only covers a ball that may be lost - and is a mechanism purely intended to avoid that time-consuming 'walk of shame'! If you believe it may be in the Water Hazard, then playing a Provisional precludes the ability to claim 'Known or Virtual Certainty' that the ball is in the Water Hazard without actually finding it there! That's because you have 'stated by your action' that the ball may be lost!

 

[jim8flog]

One option you could have taken before hitting the second on the tee was to declare the ball a provisional for a ball that may be lost outside of the hazard as you could not be sure that the ball had finished in the water hazard.

If the first ball is subsequently found in the water hazard you have now found the first ball and the provisional is no longer in play.

If you find the first ball within 5 minutes of beginning to search it is the ball in play provided you have not hit the provisional from a point closer to the hole or, I believe, close to where the original ball may have been.

 

[chrisd]

I really don't think that the rule of "virtual certainty" was anywhere near satisfied by the initial action and, for me, it's a long walk back for 3 off the tee.

 

[duncan mackie]

I agree with all of the previous responses....

1. You seem to have been a little easy on your establishment of virtual certainty from the way things are worded, as well as the fact that you found your ball outside the hazard. A useful approach is "is there anywhere else it could be?" which normally requires the whole relevant area (non hazard) to be mown to fairway height etc. However...
2. Having decided that the ball was lost in the hazard you proceeded under rule 26. Fine.
3. When you then found your original ball it was no longer in play. If you had played it you would have been playing a wrongly substituted ball from a wrong place...good job you didn't.
4. If, under the circumstances, you had elected to play another ball from the tee provisional on your original ball being lost (outside a hazard) or OOB then it becomes harder to subsequently establish that the ball must in fact be lost in the hazard. Finding it there, or someone subsequently advising you they saw it drop in the hazard, being obvious examples. It is also possible to arrive at the area and establish satisfactorily that it couldn't be anywhere else but it's rare, especially on your home course.

 

[bernix]

imo the rule as it is, is problematic because once you see your ball fly in the direction of a water hazard, you have to decide whether actually came to rest inside or outside the water hazard.
certain or virtually certain that it did -> walk to the point where it last crossed the hazard and continue under rule 26
else -> hit a provisional
as hitting a provisional costs distance opposite dropping a ball under rule 26 you usually will be reluctant to hit one because unless you find your original ball (inside or outside the hazard) the provi becomes the ball in play.
what if your playing partner dont acquiesce to your assessment?

different question. if i am virutally certain that my ball is lost inside the water hazard, am i entitled to play a provisional anyway?
why? if i unexpectedly find my original ball i continue to play it else i play the provisional because the other options of rule 26 are not particularly attractive

 

[rulie]

I agree with all of the previous responses....

1. You seem to have been a little easy on your establishment of virtual certainty from the way things are worded, as well as the fact that you found your ball outside the hazard. A useful approach is "is there anywhere else it could be?" which normally requires the whole relevant area (non hazard) to be mown to fairway height etc. However...
2. Having decided that the ball was lost in the hazard you proceeded under rule 26. Fine.
3. When you then found your original ball it was no longer in play. If you had played it you would have been playing a wrongly substituted ball from a wrong place...good job you didn't.
4. If, under the circumstances, you had elected to play another ball from the tee provisional on your original ball being lost (outside a hazard) or OOB then it becomes harder to subsequently establish that the ball must in fact be lost in the hazard. Finding it there, or someone subsequently advising you they saw it drop in the hazard, being obvious examples. It is also possible to arrive at the area and establish satisfactorily that it couldn't be anywhere else but it's rare, especially on your home course.

No, it would have been a wrong ball.

 

[Colin L]

No, it would have been a wrong ball.

I thought the OP had dropped a ball in which case it was wrongly substituted, but I confess to being a tad confused as to what was going on.

 

[williamalex1]

Seems quite similar to the recent Poulter incident, where the ball was found beyond the water hazard, after the referee had been browbeaten into the ruling.

 

[atticusfinch]

4. If, under the circumstances, you had elected to play another ball from the tee provisional on your original ball being lost (outside a hazard) or OOB then it becomes harder to subsequently establish that the ball must in fact be lost in the hazard.

Exactly. Electing to play a provisional under those facts more or less admits there is not virtual certainty it is lost in the hazard.

 

[atticusfinch]

I took a drop...

Where?

 

[duncan mackie]

No, it would have been a wrong ball.

Indeed - he was playing it as it lay rather than dropping it. Thank you.

 

[mikevet]

It appears that everyone is assuming that the river was a water hazard; was it marked with red or yellow stakes, or even white OOB stakes, was it part of the course or just a boundary? It would make a difference as to what would be the correct procedure.