Back to the tee or otherwise!

[3offTheTee]

A and B tee off in a Medal and both balls end up in the rough.

A ‘finds’ his ball and plays towards the green before B arrives.B cannot find his ball and after 3 minutes walks back to the tee to play a provisional. On the way he finds A’s ball.

A had played B’s ball by mistake and will need to correct and have a general penalty etc.

What is the position with B please?

It seems inequitable that he has to go back to the tee and be playing 3

 

[Imurg]

Is it certain that A played B's ball..?

 

[rulie]

A and B tee off in a Medal and both balls end up in the rough.

A ‘finds’ his ball and plays towards the green before B arrives.B cannot find his ball and after 3 minutes walks back to the tee to play a provisional. On the way he finds A’s ball.

A had played B’s ball by mistake and will need to correct and have a general penalty etc.

What is the position with B please?

It seems inequitable that he has to go back to the tee and be playing 3

B's ball was not found within the three minute search period. By definition it is lost and he must proceed under stroke and distance. Player B has the same three minutes to determine whether or not A had played his ball.

 

[rulefan]

A and B tee off in a Medal and both balls end up in the rough.

A ‘finds’ his ball and plays towards the green before B arrives.B cannot find his ball and after 3 minutes walks back to the tee to play a provisional. On the way he finds A’s ball.

A had played B’s ball by mistake and will need to correct and have a general penalty etc.

What is the position with B please?

It seems inequitable that he has to go back to the tee and be playing 3

Although Rulie has used 9.6 which says

But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball was lifted or moved by an outside influence and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.

I believe that a the next paragraph applies.

"If the player’s ball is played as a wrong ball by another player, that is covered by Rule 6.3c(2), not by this Rule."

6.3c(2) What to Do When Player’s Ball Was Played by Another Player as Wrong Ball.
If it is known or virtually certain that the player’s ball was played by another player as a wrong ball, the player must replace the original ball or another ball on the original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).

 

[3offTheTee]

Is it certain that A played B's ball..?

That was why ‘finds’ was written the way it was.

 

[3offTheTee]

Although Rulie has used 9.6 which says

But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball was lifted or moved by an outside influence and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.

I believe that a the next paragraph applies.

"If the player’s ball is played as a wrong ball by another player, that is covered by Rule 6.3c(2), not by this Rule."

6.3c(2) What to Do When Player’s Ball Was Played by Another Player as Wrong Ball.
If it is known or virtually certain that the player’s ball was played by another player as a wrong ball, the player must replace the original ball or another ball on the original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).

That seems equitable. However is that still the case if 3 or 6 minutes have passed? I would have thought so as B would never have found his ball1

 

[rulefan]

That seems equitable. However is that still the case if 3 or 6 minutes have passed? I would have thought so as B would never have found his ball1

Note that 9.6 says "and the ball is lost" but expressly says the situation is "covered by Rule 6.3c(2), not by this Rule." So being 'lost' is not a consideration.

 

[rulie]

Note that 9.6 says "and the ball is lost" but expressly says the situation is "covered by Rule 6.3c(2), not by this Rule." So being 'lost' is not a consideration.

Whether it is known or virtually certain that A played B's ball must be determined within the three minute search time. If discovered later, it is irrelevant. See Known or Virtually Certain/2.

 

[3offTheTee]

Whether it is known or virtually certain that A played B's ball must be determined within the three minute search time. If discovered later, it is irrelevant. See Known or Virtually Certain/2.

Thanks

I said in the first post that 3 minutes had passed.

 

[Steven Rules]

A and B tee off in a Medal and both balls end up in the rough.

A ‘finds’ his ball and plays towards the green before B arrives.B cannot find his ball and after 3 minutes walks back to the tee to play a provisional. On the way he finds A’s ball.

A had played B’s ball by mistake and will need to correct and have a general penalty etc.

What is the position with B please?

It seems inequitable that he has to go back to the tee and be playing 3

Rulie and Rulefan have got this well covered but the answer is also very neatly packaged up in another not-yet-quoted Interpretation. This question is almost identical to one of the 'standard' R&A quiz questions and also to Interpretation Known or Virtually Certain/3

Player A gets the general penalty for playing a wrong ball and must then play his or her own ball (Rule 6.3c).

Player B's original ball was lost and he or she must put another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 18.2b).

Note on terminolgy - after a three minute search period, it is not a provisional ball that B is walking back to put into play (Interpretation 18.3a2).

Interpretation Known or Virtually Certain/3 - Player Unaware Ball Played by Another Player

It must be known or virtually certain that a player's ball has been played by another player as a wrong ball to treat it as being moved.
For example, in stroke play, Player A and Player B hit their tee shots into the same general location. Player A finds a ball and plays it. Player B goes forward to look for his or her ball and cannot find it. After three minutes, Player B starts back to the tee to play another ball. On the way, Player B finds Player A's ball and knows then that Player A has played his or her ball in error.
Player A gets the general penalty for playing a wrong ball and must then play his or her own ball (Rule 6.3c). Player A's ball was not lost even though both players searched for more than three minutes because Player A did not start searching for his or her ball; the searching was for Player B's ball. Regarding Player B's ball, Player B's original ball was lost and he or she must put another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 18.2b), because it was not known or virtually certain when the three-minute search time expired that the ball had been played by another player.

 

[Steven Rules]

What is the position with B please?

B is probably feeling very 'aggrieved'.

 

[rulefan]

Another case of poor writing. As written they don't mean the same thing.

Interpretation
"because it was not known or virtually certain ..." (ie previously after 3 minutes)

as opposed to

Rule
"If it is known or virtually certain ...." (ie at any time including later, when they realised A had played B's ball)

But the Interpretation resolves it.

 

[salfordlad]

Another case of poor writing. As written they don't mean the same thing.

Interpretation
"because it was not known or virtually certain ..." (ie previously after 3 minutes)

as opposed to

Rule
"If it is known or virtually certain ...." (ie at any time including later, when they realised A had played B's ball)

But the Interpretation resolves it.

Your concern is misplaced, there is nothing wrong with the writing. Both uses are correct in their context. The Rule is saying if KVC applies.....; the Definition and Interpretations tell you how to assess if KVC applies - did KVC apply based only on the information available at the lapse of the 3 minute search time? That decision can be made after 3 minutes search.

 

[backwoodsman]

Rulie and Rulefan have got this well covered but the answer is also very neatly packaged up in another not-yet-quoted Interpretation. This question is almost identical to one of the 'standard' R&A quiz questions and also to Interpretation Known or Virtually Certain/3

Player A gets the general penalty for playing a wrong ball and must then play his or her own ball (Rule 6.3c).

Player B's original ball was lost and he or she must put another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 18.2b).

Note on terminolgy - after a three minute search period, it is not a provisional ball that B is walking back to put into play (Interpretation 18.3a2).

Interpretation Known or Virtually Certain/3 - Player Unaware Ball Played by Another Player

It must be known or virtually certain that a player's ball has been played by another player as a wrong ball to treat it as being moved.
For example, in stroke play, Player A and Player B hit their tee shots into the same general location. Player A finds a ball and plays it. Player B goes forward to look for his or her ball and cannot find it. After three minutes, Player B starts back to the tee to play another ball. On the way, Player B finds Player A's ball and knows then that Player A has played his or her ball in error.
Player A gets the general penalty for playing a wrong ball and must then play his or her own ball (Rule 6.3c). Player A's ball was not lost even though both players searched for more than three minutes because Player A did not start searching for his or her ball; the searching was for Player B's ball. Regarding Player B's ball, Player B's original ball was lost and he or she must put another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 18.2b), because it was not known or virtually certain when the three-minute search time expired that the ball had been played by another player.

Can't help but think that the interpretation is rather harsh on player B. He hasn't found his ball in 3mins because it is not possible to find it - it has been moved albeit unknown to him that it has. Moreover, it has actually been found - by player A - who mis-identified it. OK, player B didn't identify it as his, but he was not given chance to do so. If them's the rules, then them's the rules. But I can see why player B would be aggrieved.

 

[Bdill93]

Can't help but think that the interpretation is rather harsh on player B. He hasn't found his ball in 3mins because it is not possible to find it - it has been moved albeit unknown to him that it has. Moreover, it has actually been found - by player A - who mis-identified it. OK, player B didn't identify it as his, but he was not given chance to do so. If them's the rules, then them's the rules. But I can see why player B would be aggrieved.

This in abundance! Majorly harsh ruling for player B whos literally just hit a shot into the rough and through no fault of his own now is playing 3 off the tee

 

[salfordlad]

This in abundance! Majorly harsh ruling for player B whos literally just hit a shot into the rough and through no fault of his own now is playing 3 off the tee

Always extremely unfortunate when some outside person carelessly plays your ball and, unaware, you get stuck with a S&D requirement, but the crime seems even more nasty when the miscreant is someone in your own group! The conclusion I draw is, if possible in that searching scenario, you should try to have a squiz at the 'found' ball that another person in your group is about to play.

 

[Old Colner]

Always extremely unfortunate when some outside person carelessly plays your ball and, unaware, you get stuck with a S&D requirement, but the crime seems even more nasty when the miscreant is someone in your own group! The conclusion I draw is, if possible in that searching scenario, you should try to have a squiz at the 'found' ball that another person in your group is about to play.

I have to agree with this, especially if my ball was in the general proximity, I think I would be having a quick look at the found ball or at least getting player A to double check it.

 

[Swango1980]

Always extremely unfortunate when some outside person carelessly plays your ball and, unaware, you get stuck with a S&D requirement, but the crime seems even more nasty when the miscreant is someone in your own group! The conclusion I draw is, if possible in that searching scenario, you should try to have a squiz at the 'found' ball that another person in your group is about to play.

Let us say Player B has not found their ball after 2 minutes and 50 seconds. They then say to Player A "I think there is a chance you played my ball mate" whether or not they have found Player A's original (not sure than matters). Does Player B have 10 seconds to sprint to where Player A's hit his ball (potentially), or does he get extra time to go and identify that ball, which would be well over 100 yards away.

If Player B is allowed enough time to go and check, do they get another 3 minutes once they get to the area Player A hit it, if Player A happened to hit their ball into the jungle or heavy rough?

 

[salfordlad]

Let us say Player B has not found their ball after 2 minutes and 50 seconds. They then say to Player A "I think there is a chance you played my ball mate" whether or not they have found Player A's original (not sure than matters). Does Player B have 10 seconds to sprint to where Player A's hit his ball (potentially), or does he get extra time to go and identify that ball, which would be well over 100 yards away.

If Player B is allowed enough time to go and check, do they get another 3 minutes once they get to the area Player A hit it, if Player A happened to hit their ball into the jungle or heavy rough?

The guidance we have on these issues is in Rule 18.2 and in the definition of "lost". I see nothing there that would enable B to extend the time search clock beyond the 3 minute limit on the scenario you have identified.

 

[Swango1980]

The guidance we have on these issues is in Rule 18.2 and in the definition of "lost". I see nothing there that would enable B to extend the time search clock beyond the 3 minute limit on the scenario you have identified.

Well, that is harsh on Player B. Coming to the realisation that A may well have hit his ball inside 3 minutes. Player A may well agree, especially if they happen to find Player A's ball in the rough, yet Player B is doomed to have his ball defined as lost.

However, just as a final thought. If you know were Player A hit your (likely) ball, whether you can still physically see it a long way down the fairway or not, can you not insist you have technically found a ball (you know where it is), and then you have any time you need to go and identify it? Not sure if you need to be physically able to see it from where you are stood, because they might have hit it onto the green, but ball hidden from view due to a small hill.