Atheism and Theism

Voyager EMH said:
All written by people who lived in a time and place where slavery had been the norm for a few thousand years.
I do not find that puzzling. I do not feel it necessary to dwell on it much. It was the thoughts of the human author at that time.
The author would have also been influenced by a belief in a god.

A lot of us have moved on. Some have not.
And that is the current state of human understanding and the state of lack of human understanding.
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Indeed, the youngest (and most violent) of the Abrahamic religions is still quite keen on the old slavery.
 
Voyager EMH said:
All written by people who lived in a time and place where slavery had been the norm for a few thousand years.
I do not find that puzzling. I do not feel it necessary to dwell on it much. It was the thoughts of the human author at that time.
The author would have also been influenced by a belief in a god.

A lot of us have moved on. Some have not.
And that is the current state of human understanding and the state of lack of human understanding.
Click to expand...

Well I mean, obviously yeah!

It’s seen as “the word of God” but it’s all just made up by man - in order to control people and cement the authority of those who wrote it.

I don’t believe it is the word of God. But if someone did provide me with proof of God and that his depiction in the bible is accurate, I’d say he’s a total piece of **** and he would have some hard work to do to convince me to worship him.
 
Don Barzini said:
Nope. I’m afraid you can’t blame this on man being in charge of his own destiny. You can’t shoo it away that easily.

The bible explicitly endorses slavery. It explicitly tells people where to get their slaves from, how much they can beat them, how long they can keep them for and how to cheat them into agreeing to remain as slaves for their entire lives. Thats nothing to do with man’s free will. Thats the god character telling man they can do it.

And if, like a lot of Christians, you attempt to defend it by saying it’s from a part of the bible that isn’t to have any credence attached to it then I would ask by what authority you claim that? Where does it say “this bit of the bible is the right bit, that bit is the wrong bit.”

And I would say that if you do try and make the claim that the rules around slavery aren’t from an authoritative or reliable book of the bible, then I suggest you turn just one page back from where they are. Because on that previous page, you will find the Ten Commandments.
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I've already explained that but you are at will to form your own opinion. The way or guidance of how man should live has been revealed to him but he has also been given the ability to decide whether he follows them or not.

Again, Christ repealed the ways of the past, he decried the priests and old ways and gave mankind a new way to redeem their lives. The writings of the old testament reveal the old ways not the basis of the Christian religion. Unless you grasp this concept you will not understand the message of Christianity.

I would just add to this that the mainstream Christian Churches do not follow the teaching of the scriptures well, they have made up stories to create untruths for the sake of attracting people to their churches.

People do not go to a heaven in the sky when they die, we return to dust until the resurrection.
There are many markers that must happen as we move towards the end of days.

Of course you are at will to ignore and disbelieve these things, we must all live our lives as we see fit.
 
SocketRocket said:
It's fair and reasonable for someone to hold an opinion on religion although like other topics an opinion should be formed by making a determined effort to understand the subject.

Has the OP studied the religions he comments on or are his comments formed by cherry picked publications that are using quotes and extracts completely out of context. How many have read the Bible or Koran before dismissing them, how many have made an attempt to understand the context of
their story before decrying them. It's a bit like climate change, it's easy to proclaim or deny without making an effort to study it, to pull out bits and pieces of the overall subject and ridicule or support something by lazy knee jerk reaction.
Believe it or deny by all means but make a reasonable attempt to form an unbiased view based not on what many churches and sects wish to put out.
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I began reading the bible from the start as a young teenager - my family were never overtly religious, but my school was a Christian one - but as we only ever read bits and pieces from it in school I thought I should read it as a whole.

I can't say I read it all, because it just seemed like a piece of fiction to me. I keep thinking that I should go back and read it as a whole, but I don't think I ever will.

Probably because of all the deaths caused by religious wars turns me away from it - I don't want to know more about it if I was to be honest.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
If the God of my understanding deliberately created humankind as different from all other creatures in that humankind knows good and evil and has free will to choose what he does, then that same God could not at the same time tell humankind that it had to do one thing or the other - that decision could only be left to humankind. That we have made some very bad and terrible choices over time - often given interpretations to fit their will of what others had written down as best they understood things - well I would say (of course I would) that my God would despair at our sin and bad decisions but then help us to work to remediate the bad outcomes of what we have done. Anyway - that's how my God works for me.
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Wow - that is such a basic excuse for god not being the good guy he is meant to be.
 
SocketRocket said:
Again, Christ repealed the ways of the past, he decried the priests and old ways and gave mankind a new way to redeem their lives. The writings of the old testament reveal the old ways not the basis of the Christian religion. Unless you grasp this concept you will not understand the message of Christianity.
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If this is the case, then why is the Old Testament included in the Christian Bible?
Is it just there as a warning of the things to be avoided?
 
SocketRocket said:
I've already explained that but you are at will to form your own opinion. The way or guidance of how man should live has been revealed to him but he has also been given the ability to decide whether he follows them or not.

Again, Christ repealed the ways of the past, he decried the priests and old ways and gave mankind a new way to redeem their lives. The writings of the old testament reveal the old ways not the basis of the Christian religion. Unless you grasp this concept you will not understand the message of Christianity.

I would just add to this that the mainstream Christian Churches do not follow the teaching of the scriptures well, they have made up stories to create untruths for the sake of attracting people to their churches.

People do not go to a heaven in the sky when they die, we return to dust until the resurrection.
There are many markers that must happen as we move towards the end of days.

Of course you are at will to ignore and disbelieve these things, we must all live our lives as we see fit.
Click to expand...

Wrong. Jesus specifically stated that he didn’t want to rewrite or abolish the laws of the Old Testament, but in actual fact to fulfill them.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”

— Matthew 5:17–18

I have grasped the concept that Christianity bases itself on the New Testament. But the fact remains that the god of the Old Testament is still part of the story. It’s still the same god. That is still the god of Christianity. And Jesus decried the old ways…? Really? Matthew got it wrong then.

I get that as a Christian you want to gloss over or ignore the bad stuff your god did. Here is a very simple yes or no question that I’d be interested to hear you answer to, if you will.

Does the god of the bible support, endorse and legislate slavery?
 
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ExRabbit said:
Wow - that is such a basic excuse for god not being the good guy he is meant to be.
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A friend in need reaches out for my help as he knows me as a good friend. I can offer my friend what I consider to be good advice, indeed I can suggest that even if he doesn't like what my advice means for him I consider it best for him. It is then up to my friend to take my advice - or ignore it. If he ignores it and things go wrong or others are hurt, as a friend I don't gloat and say 'told ya so' or 'you nasty person', but instead I am sad for my friend but support him and then offer to help my him sort things as best he can. But again, it's up to him whether our not he accepts my help. I can't or don't fix things for him - that's for him to do. If at the outset, or indeed at any time, he takes my advice and things turn out OK, he is more likely to reach out to me in the future for help. That's how it works.
 
On reading or listening to scripture...in my denomination the following very much applies (I cannot speak for other denominations)

Reading or listening to scripture is about more than just hearing the words; it's about actively seeking to understand and apply God's message in my life. It involves me engaging with the text, being guided by the Holy Spirit to understand God's will in what is being read; meditating on its meaning, and allowing it to shape my thoughts and actions. Ultimately, listening to scripture is a way for me to hear God speaking to me personally.

And importantly given much of the discussion and criticism of much of what is written in scripture - especially in the books of the Old Testament - in engaging with the scripture being read context matters I must consider the historical and literary context of the passage to fully understand it and what it can mean for me in the context of today.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
A friend in need reaches out for my help as he knows me as a good friend. I can offer my friend what I consider to be good advice, indeed I can suggest that even if he doesn't like what my advice means for him I consider it best for him. It is then up to my friend to take my advice - or ignore it. If he ignores it and things go wrong or others are hurt, as a friend I don't gloat and say 'told ya so' or 'you nasty person', but instead I am sad for my friend but support him and then offer to help my him sort things as best he can. But again, it's up to him whether our not he accepts my help. I can't or don't fix things for him - that's for him to do. If at the outset, or indeed at any time, he takes my advice and things turn out OK, he is more likely to reach out to me in the future for help. That's how it works.
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So the options are...
1. You give him advice which he might ignore and things go wrong
Or
2. You give him advice which he takes and things turn out ok.

What would happen if you gave him advice which he took and things went wrong, how would that affect you and your faith?
 
bobmac said:
So the options are...
1. You give him advice which he might ignore and things go wrong
Or
2. You give him advice which he takes and things turn out ok.

What would happen if you gave him advice which he took and things went wrong, how would that affect you and your faith?
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With my faith I'd understand that in taking the advice - which might well mean doing something I do NOT want to do - things might well go wrong. Indeed I might know that in the short term things could be painful or difficult for me - but that in the long run things will turn out for the best. And that is my experience,.
 
SocketRocket said:
Many religions believe in the same God. The Bible and the Koran for example have many similarities.
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Two of the many religions around the world which seem to be intent on destroying each other. Do their 'gods' support this? Is it in fact the same 'god'.
How many other 'gods' or religions are there?
 
rulefan said:
When and where did that 'god' sat that or write it down?
What if another 'god' made such an instruction?
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Some believe with no proof that their God wrote the 10 commandments and gave them to Moses on Mount Sinai.
It's a bit like saying the Bible is true because the Bible says so
 
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