Atheism and Theism

[Tashyboy]

I don’t know how I did it but after Lord knows how many years ( pardon the pun) I clicked a unwatch tab on me phone. Ave gone back and cannot flippin find it. I need to un watch this thread coz Ave just realised god don’t listen to me when I knob one on the course and I shout “ oh god”.

 

[cliveb]

How did astrophysicists and astronomers discover Black Holes? Because they looked and saw something happen in regions of the universe that they couldn't understand - there was no scientific explanation for the phenomenon but something was impacting stars and star systems that they could not see but was clearly real - they came to believe that something was there.

Choosing black holes is an unfortunate example. Black holes were first predicted entirely theoretically, and observational evidence supporting their existence didn't come about until decades later.

But I get your point. There are indeed some phenomena that we don't yet understand. A better example might be dark matter: observations indicate that it must exist, but as yet we don't know what it might be.

However, the crucial thing is that over the last few centuries it's become increasingly clear that there are rational explanations for perplexing phenomena. We just need to find them. Dark matter will have a scientific explanation sooner or later.

Contrast this to earlier times when the only way to try and make sense of huge numbers of strange things in the world was to invoke some kind of supernatural being or power. The ratio of understandable to inexplicable things is now so high that it's much more sensible to believe that the few remaining inexplicable things have a physical cause than it is to believe some kind of god is responsible.

 

[Tashyboy]

Choosing black holes is an unfortunate example. Black holes were first predicted entirely theoretically, and observational evidence supporting their existence didn't come about until decades later.

But I get your point. There are indeed some phenomena that we don't yet understand. A better example might be dark matter: observations indicate that it must exist, but as yet we don't know what it might be.

However, the crucial thing is that over the last few centuries it's become increasingly clear that there are rational explanations for perplexing phenomena. We just need to find them. Dark matter will have a scientific explanation sooner or later.

Contrast this to earlier times when the only way to try and make sense of huge numbers of strange things in the world was to invoke some kind of supernatural being or power. The ratio of understandable to inexplicable things is now so high that it's much more sensible to believe that the few remaining inexplicable things have a physical cause than it is to believe some kind of god is responsible.

I kinda wondered when science would interact with religion. Dan Browns books have a science v religion battle in some of them.

 

[SocketRocket]

First….stop this nonsense about “ my God”. If there is a God , he is what he is.
He does not conform with your definition or anyone else’s.

Also, this business about we were created with a free will, and thus things are what they are because of that.
Ask any designer, or engineer. If you designed something, e.g airplane, locomotives, whatever, and before creating it and putting it into service, you had the gift of knowing the future, and you therefore ( unlike human designers) knew that it would kill, maim, cause disease, and pain and all sorts of terrible suffering , would you press the “Start” button?
No, you wouldn’t, Amost all humans wouldn’t
Would a loving ,compassionate , all powerful, perfect being?
No, of course not.
Conclusion……….There isn’t one.

Epicurus put it more succinctly than this…..and he was right.

Finally.. the big question is not” Why,” it is “Why not ?”
If the objective is that we, mankind, live in Bliss in Heaven for eternity , why didn’t we find ourselves there from the outset?
Why not have that scenario , and only that , created ? Period!

This is my interpretation of the Christian and to some degree other religions. I'm not in any way trying to convince anyone to change their personal views.

The Bible and Koran tells us that God created a perfect environment for humans to live in but under certain conditions that were not negotiable. If Man kept to these conditions he would live in a paradise wanting for nothing with no suffering. He also gave man (and Woman) the ability to think and reason in his own image. Man decided not to accept this gift of eternal life by breaking this covenant and living his life contrary to the way it had been given. God then explained that from this point onwards man would live by his own means and by the sweat of his brow.

So mankind had been set the challenge with a warning that he is not capable of living in a World without his Gods control.

The early parts of the Bible describe the start of this process and not the way his God had designed his life.
Man was given some guidance to deflect the worse effects during this process, the ten commandments for example.

God then decided to make a let out by sending his Son who would decry the old ways and hypocrisy that Man had designed and offer a new future based on love and forgiveness. This wasn't meant to be a U-turn for man but a way forward he could follow that would give him the chance once again to live the way his God had designed for him. This would not happen now but at the end of the current World order where each person woud be judged as whether suitable for an eternal life.

Interestingly the Bible doesn't say anywhere that people would go to Heaven but rather live on a new earth. Going to Heaven is something made up by some of the churches.

I could go into more detail but don't really want or need to.

 

[Don Barzini]

Just for a bit of fun...

The science you cite as evidence proving the existence and nature of black holes feels to be based upon multiple hypotheses being postulated for the behaviour of celestial bodies as seen in the vicinity - with each hypothesis being disproved by scientific method and/or observation? However might I suggest that this approach leads to the conclusion that since every hypothesis has been disproven the only explanation must be that black holes must exist and be of such-and-such a nature.

Surely however the important caveat is that all the hypotheses tested are those that current scientific knowledge supports - and I think it is fair to suggest that current scientific knowledge does not provide the answer to every question we have about the universe - because we know the answer to everything is 42.

The point remains that black holes were proposed as the best explanation based on measurable, falsifiable data, and subsequent observations supported the theory. Science is indeed limited by current knowledge, but it remains grounded in testable evidence.

Suggesting a god fills a gap in current knowledge isn’t equivalent – it’s invoking a supernatural explanation without any testable predictive power. That’s precisely the difference between scientific inference and faith-based belief.

Science and religion both ask the question “why?” The difference is that science is happy to say “we don’t know,” and it tries to find out through empirical, measurable, and testable means. When science is wrong about something, it doesn’t get upset or offended – it rejoices, because finding out it was wrong means it has learned something new.

Religion, on the other hand, claims to know the unknowable without providing any evidence whatsoever. It never admits it is wrong. It simply shifts the goalposts and twists two-thousand-year-old words to fit whatever meaning suits it at the time.

 

[Don Barzini]

This is my interpretation of the Christian and to some degree other religions. I'm not in any way trying to convince anyone to change their personal views.

The Bible and Koran tells us that God created a perfect environment for humans to live in but under certain conditions that were not negotiable. If Man kept to these conditions he would live in a paradise wanting for nothing with no suffering. He also gave man (and Woman) the ability to think and reason in his own image. Man decided not to accept this gift of eternal life by breaking this covenant and living his life contrary to the way it had been given. God then explained that from this point onwards man would live by his own means and by the sweat of his brow.

So mankind had been set the challenge with a warning that he is not capable of living in a World without his Gods control.

The early parts of the Bible describe the start of this process and not the way his God had designed his life.
Man was given some guidance to deflect the worse effects during this process, the ten commandments for example.

God then decided to make a let out by sending his Son who would decry the old ways and hypocrisy that Man had designed and offer a new future based on love and forgiveness. This wasn't meant to be a U-turn for man but a way forward he could follow that would give him the chance once again to live the way his God had designed for him. This would not happen now but at the end of the current World order where each person woud be judged as whether suitable for an eternal life.

Interestingly the Bible doesn't say anywhere that people would go to Heaven but rather live on a new earth. Going to Heaven is something made up by some of the churches.

I could go into more detail but don't really want or need to.

And in the entire story, neither the god character, nor his son (who is also him) ever tells people it’s bad to make other human beings their slaves.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Finding fault in the Bible, Koran or any religious texts is a waste of time and effort.

They contain stuff that someone created from their imagination and wrote it down.
It was their thoughts at that time.

Human understanding moves on. It is not constrained by works of the imagination written a long time ago.

Well, I should say that it should not be so constrained. Obviously it is so constrained by some people in the world. Pity them.

 

[rulefan]

The Bible and Koran tells us that God created .......

But weren't the Bible and Koran written by people not by their 'god'?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

You tell me… although I do occasionally wonder if some of the gods in different religions are actually the same god but the story went separate ways as it travelled the world.

Here’s another question to ponder though, again, I’m not fussed on what the answer might be. How on earth did the stories travel the world, with different texts in so many different countries being so similar, when travel and communication was so difficult?

Life is too short, and with so many good things to enjoy, without getting bogged down in unanswerable questions.

Well,

It’s a good job that Copernicus, Galileo, Lister, Jenner, Pasteur, and a lot of others didn’t have the same acceptance level that you endorse.



It isn’t sufficient just to learn, we should also think!

 

[Hobbit]

Well,

It’s a good job that Copernicus, Galileo, Lister, Jenner, Pasteur, and a lot of others didn’t have the same acceptance level that you endorse.



It isn’t sufficient just to learn, we should also think!

I’m not endorsing anything, especially my views onto anyone else, nor am I saying people should think. How we live our lives is up to each of us individually. If someone wants to question life, the universe and everything good for them…

And we each have our own skill sets that contribute to a wider society in their own way. Forcing anyone to contribute more via enforcing a set of beliefs isn’t very fair.

 

[Don Barzini]

Here’s another question to ponder though, again, I’m not fussed on what the answer might be. How on earth did the stories travel the world, with different texts in so many different countries being so similar, when travel and communication was so difficult?

I always think this map is fairly telling. Whole big world out there that a god supposedly created, yet he only bothered doing all of his stuff in that tiny little circle? And he had some major news to impart to mankind, so in his wisdom he thought the very best way to do that was to reveal himself to a bunch of illiterate, bronze age peasants and shepherds in Palestine?! Hmmmmmm......

As to how the stories then travelled the world - have a basic look at the history of spread of Christianity and you'll find it was mostly done by people holding swords. Invade a country and threaten its people with death unless they start worshipping your god. How proud Christians must be of how the Europeans treated Native Americans and the people of Africa, using verses from the bible to justify their actions.

THAT'S how it spread. Not because there was any truth to it - because it was done by force.

The story of Hatuey, Chief of the Taino people:

Eventually, using mastiffs and torturing the Native people for information, the Spaniards succeeded in capturing Hatuey. On 2 February 1512, he was tied to a stake and burned alive at Yara, near the present-day City of Bayamo in Cuba. Before he was burned, a priest asked Hatuey if he would accept Jesus and go to heaven.

Friar Bartolomé de las Casas recalled the reaction of the chief: Hatuey, thinking a little, asked the religious man if Spaniards went to heaven. The religious man answered yes... The chief then said without further thought that he did not want to go there but to hell so as not to be where they were and where he would not see such cruel people.

 

[bobmac]

I didn't know that the bible was written by anybody's god.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

The Bible is not merely human writings, but divinely inspired by God.

Just don't mention large chunks of the Old Testament....eg. Deuteronomy 21:20-21, Genesis 19:26 (also mentioned in the New Testament.... Luke 17:32), 2 Kings 2:23-24, Leviticus 19:27 (bad hair day), Exodus 31:12-17 etc etc

Why are so many who profess to be Christians in their beliefs, so un Christian in their actions?

The Nazi Wehrmacht had "Gott mit Uns" on their belts ''God with us''

 

[rulefan]

2 Timothy 3:16-17

The Bible is not merely human writings, but divinely inspired by God.

A non sequitur then.

 

[SocketRocket]

And in the entire story, neither the god character, nor his son (who is also him) ever tells people it’s bad to make other human beings their slaves.

As I've tried to explain (poorly it seems) man is in charge of his own destiny, if that means enslaving others then that's been his choice. The commandments and later Christ gave man an understanding on how to live their lives, that didn't include slavery, he explained what we should do and not an endless list of things we shouldn't.

 

[SocketRocket]

I always think this map is fairly telling. Whole big world out there that a god supposedly created, yet he only bothered doing all of his stuff in that tiny little circle? And he had some major news to impart to mankind, so in his wisdom he thought the very best way to do that was to reveal himself to a bunch of illiterate, bronze age peasants and shepherds in Palestine?! Hmmmmmm......

As to how the stories then travelled the world - have a basic look at the history of spread of Christianity and you'll find it was mostly done by people holding swords. Invade a country and threaten its people with death unless they start worshipping your god. How proud Christians must be of how the Europeans treated Native Americans and the people of Africa, using verses from the bible to justify their actions.

THAT'S how it spread. Not because there was any truth to it - because it was done by force.

The story of Hatuey, Chief of the Taino people:

Eventually, using mastiffs and torturing the Native people for information, the Spaniards succeeded in capturing Hatuey. On 2 February 1512, he was tied to a stake and burned alive at Yara, near the present-day City of Bayamo in Cuba. Before he was burned, a priest asked Hatuey if he would accept Jesus and go to heaven.

Friar Bartolomé de las Casas recalled the reaction of the chief: Hatuey, thinking a little, asked the religious man if Spaniards went to heaven. The religious man answered yes... The chief then said without further thought that he did not want to go there but to hell so as not to be where they were and where he would not see such cruel people.

You are confusing the acts of Mankind with the teaching of the scriptures. Mankind has original sin and isn't capable of living in peace and harmony. The Bible explains to us that at the end of days a new heaven and earth will be created where the worthy will live eternally, none of us has a place in Heaven. There is no factual evidence for this, only the teachings of Christ and human faith. We are completely free to believe or deny these things.

 

[bobmac]

A non sequitur then.

So God had nothing to do with the 10 commandments then?

 

[D-S]

So God had nothing to do with the 10 commandments then?

If you believe in her, yes she did.

However I don’t think she does, as if she did why on earth doesn’t she make her existence a tad more obvious?

 

[Don Barzini]

As I've tried to explain (poorly it seems) man is in charge of his own destiny, if that means enslaving others then that's been his choice. The commandments and later Christ gave man an understanding on how to live their lives, that didn't include slavery, he explained what we should do and not an endless list of things we shouldn't.

Nope. I’m afraid you can’t blame this on man being in charge of his own destiny. You can’t shoo it away that easily.

The bible explicitly endorses slavery. It explicitly tells people where to get their slaves from, how much they can beat them, how long they can keep them for and how to cheat them into agreeing to remain as slaves for their entire lives. Thats nothing to do with man’s free will. Thats the god character telling man they can do it.

And if, like a lot of Christians, you attempt to defend it by saying it’s from a part of the bible that isn’t to have any credence attached to it then I would ask by what authority you claim that? Where does it say “this bit of the bible is the right bit, that bit is the wrong bit.”

And I would say that if you do try and make the claim that the rules around slavery aren’t from an authoritative or reliable book of the bible, then I suggest you turn just one page back from where they are. Because on that previous page, you will find the Ten Commandments.

 

[Fade and Die]

Nope. I’m afraid you can’t blame this on man being in charge of his own destiny. You can’t shoo it away that easily.

The bible explicitly endorses slavery. It explicitly tells people where to get their slaves from, how much they can beat them, how long they can keep them for and how to cheat them into agreeing to remain as slaves for their entire lives. Thats nothing to do with man’s free will. Thats the god character telling man they can do it.

And if, like a lot of Christians, you attempt to defend it by saying it’s from a part of the bible that isn’t to have any credence attached to it then I would ask by what authority you claim that? Where does it say “this bit of the bible is the right bit, that bit is the wrong bit.”

And I would say that if you do try and make the claim that the rules around slavery aren’t from an authoritative or reliable book of the bible, then I suggest you turn just one page back from where they are. Because on that previous page, you will find the Ten Commandments.

I always enjoy listening to people who know what they are talking about

 

[Voyager EMH]

Nope. I’m afraid you can’t blame this on man being in charge of his own destiny. You can’t shoo it away that easily.

The bible explicitly endorses slavery. It explicitly tells people where to get their slaves from, how much they can beat them, how long they can keep them for and how to cheat them into agreeing to remain as slaves for their entire lives. Thats nothing to do with man’s free will. Thats the god character telling man they can do it.

And if, like a lot of Christians, you attempt to defend it by saying it’s from a part of the bible that isn’t to have any credence attached to it then I would ask by what authority you claim that? Where does it say “this bit of the bible is the right bit, that bit is the wrong bit.”

And I would say that if you do try and make the claim that the rules around slavery aren’t from an authoritative or reliable book of the bible, then I suggest you turn just one page back from where they are. Because on that previous page, you will find the Ten Commandments.

All written by people who lived in a time and place where slavery had been the norm for a few thousand years.
I do not find that puzzling. I do not feel it necessary to dwell on it much. It was the thoughts of the human author at that time.
The author would have also been influenced by a belief in a god.

A lot of us have moved on. Some have not.
And that is the current state of human understanding and the state of lack of human understanding.