Atheism and Theism

Hitlers aggression was not religious. Shocked by this!

Going back hundreds of years, war was generally about gaining territories.
Recent conflicts and atrocities have been more about differences involving religion.
Hitler was clearly a genocidal nutcase but his purpose of war was Lebensraum in Eastern Europe for the German people.
 
“Religion’s greatest trick wasn’t making some people believe there was an all powerful God. It was convincing everyone else they couldn’t ridicule the idea.”
A human desire to have dominion over others.

1. Gather others to your cause/beliefs.
2, Take steps to become the authority.
3. Claim the right to silence/cancel/destroy those who oppose you.

4. Use religion, race, laws of your own creation, violence and any other questionable means to attempt to justify the 3 roots of your actions and deflect attention from the one main desire.
 
Last edited:
Re the OP’s question about do I believe & why.

Do I believe? Yes? Why? Because I’ve been brainwashed.

I grew up in an Irish Catholic (extended) family where everyone went to church. The community was predominantly Catholic. The school was a catholic school - prayers, hymns and religious instruction happened daily. If you missed church for a few weeks you’d get a visit from the priest, as well as there being questions from the wider family.

Do I believe in the bible? 95% of it, no. What about the other 5%? If you paraphrased it without the religious connotations it could be a best seller in the “Dummy’s guide how to live your life.”

Do I believe in the Catholic Church? Let’s just say I was lightly grazed by a bullet fired by a catholic priest in Ireland. Apart from the odd funeral since I’ve not been to church. No I do not support the Catholic Church, and with its extensive history of abuse I never will. But that’s about nasty people hiding behind a religion.

What about other people’s beliefs, either for or against, in any religion or non-religion. They might well be right. It’s not for me to argue either way.

As an engineer of many years, used to questioning, why do I just accept my beliefs. The reality is I’ve been brainwashed.
 
Re the OP’s question about do I believe & why.

Do I believe? Yes? Why? Because I’ve been brainwashed.

I grew up in an Irish Catholic (extended) family where everyone went to church. The community was predominantly Catholic. The school was a catholic school - prayers, hymns and religious instruction happened daily. If you missed church for a few weeks you’d get a visit from the priest, as well as there being questions from the wider family.

Do I believe in the bible? 95% of it, no. What about the other 5%? If you paraphrased it without the religious connotations it could be a best seller in the “Dummy’s guide how to live your life.”

Do I believe in the Catholic Church? Let’s just say I was lightly grazed by a bullet fired by a catholic priest in Ireland. Apart from the odd funeral since I’ve not been to church. No I do not support the Catholic Church, and with its extensive history of abuse I never will. But that’s about nasty people hiding behind a religion.

What about other people’s beliefs, either for or against, in any religion or non-religion. They might well be right. It’s not for me to argue either way.

As an engineer of many years, used to questioning, why do I just accept my beliefs. The reality is I’ve been brainwashed.
Especially with those feet 🦶 🤭🤭
 
I like the Ricky Gervais comments. If you grew up in the "Western" world....you believe in Christianity. India?.....not so much. Africa...huh?.....People want to believe in something. That's my theory behind Trump.....people want to be TOLD what to do. Makes them feel comfortable. Not me......Religion has caused more harm than anything else in this world. The worst people I've known over the years have been fervently religious.
 
I like the Ricky Gervais comments. If you grew up in the "Western" world....you believe in Christianity. India?.....not so much. Africa...huh?.....People want to believe in something. That's my theory behind Trump.....people want to be TOLD what to do. Makes them feel comfortable. Not me......Religion has caused more harm than anything else in this world. The worst people I've known over the years have been fervently religious.
Are you sure Ricky said that? Especially the bit about Africa. Christianity is the most widely practiced religion in Africa.

And while you are most likely to be a Hindu if born in India. Due to population sizes, there is around 6 million more Christians in India than the UK.
 
Are you sure Ricky said that? Especially the bit about Africa. Christianity is the most widely practiced religion in Africa
And while you are most likely to be a Hindu if born in India. Due to population sizes, there is around 6 million more Christians in India than the UK.
Pretty sure.....he was making the point that depending on where you live you are most likely to have the beliefs that the majority of people in that area have......which I find to be true. There are 2.3% of the population in India that consider themselves Christian, 79.8% Hindu.
 
Pretty sure.....he was making the point that depending on where you live you are most likely to have the beliefs that the majority of people in that area have......which I find to be true. There are 2.3% of the population in India that consider themselves Christian, 79.8% Hindu.

Also all the Hindus are likely to have Hindu parents and all the Christians are likely to have Christian parents as this is the biggest driver alon* with the beliefs of people in that area.

Interestingly it seems as if the vast majority of responders to this thread are certainly non believers in organised religion and seemingly non believers in a deity - a viewpoint I share but I do not know the overall statistics for such beliefs.
 
Thought about whether or not to add my tuppence to this - hmm - not sure it’s the best thing for me to do but why I have done so will hopefully become clear.

I have a faith in a spiritual deity that is not me…and as that spirituality is religion-based I happy to call that deity ‘God’. That said, I am not much of a theologian and though I read the Bible (or have read to me usually once a week on Sundays 😉) I do not carry around in my head and quote chapter and verse out of it - but I do try and live my faith daily.

What do I do? Simple - I use my faith to get me out of self, to provide me with direction, strength and guidance on how to live my life as best I can for those closest to me and those less so…and that often means not doing what I want or what is best for me when there are alternatives less attractive but which can be the ‘right thing to do’. That’s not simple; it’s not easy, it can be difficult and painful, and it carries risks for me.

And fundamental to that for me is honesty and recognising when I am wrong and making amends as required, plus forgiveness and prayer. I can and will forgive others of any harm or upset they cause me - and that can be very significant. Such forgiveness is not a forgiveness of excusing, exonerating or ‘letting off’ the perpetrator of the harm or upset - rather it is about handing that harm back to the perpetrator so that I do not carry it around in my head as anger or resentment - for such things are damaging to my well-being and peace of mind. Alongside forgiveness I will pray for the perpetrator of the ill in the hope that they might see the light - the error of their ways - and repent or at least change their ways, for they too can carry around guilt and that guilt can lead to no good whatsoever. Forgiveness can be very difficult and painful, but forgive I must, for as I have been forgiven so must I forgive.

The exemplar of faith of my sort that I keep in mind is that of Gordon Wilson, he of the Enniskillen bombing who was holding the hand of his daughter Marie as they lay trapped under the rubble of the explosion as she spoke her last words to him, holding his hand…and then died. In interviews afterwards he spoke of how he had forgiven and prayed for the IRA bombers, and pleaded with the Protestant paramilitary groups to refrain from retribution. Though his pleas in the aftermath of the bombing were not heeded he worked tirelessly for the peace in NI that was eventually achieved. He was a Methodist and had a strong Christian faith in forgiveness and prayer.

And in reflecting on Gordon Wilson I can compare how he lived his life after the bombing with that of families who have suffered terrible loss and harm by others and have been unable to forgive - and often their lives have been devastated and ripped apart by the anger and resentment that they carry around.

As said at the start of this my faith just so happens to be grounded in belief of a religious God - and despite all the bad and misfortune that happens in the world to people and by people to others, I hold to a God of love and caring. I feel no need to try and describe or justify this God to others other than perhaps to suggest that, though much if not most can be explained by science and knowledge - there is no 100% proof that such a deity does not exist.

I know that for some, if not most, the above will read as a load of tripe…but that’s my faith for you and I rather expect that - such is as it is.

So on the wider point of faith for any who might wish to think on it. Though my faith is of a similar feeling, it’s not really like being in an airplane and having faith that it will not fall out of the air…that is pretty certain - terrible accidents notwithstanding. The faith I have is of the sort I read described some years ago by the Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks as follows…

Without faith we could not risk the vulnerability of love.
 
Last edited:
Thought about whether or not to add my tuppence to this - hmm - not sure it’s the best thing for me to do but why I have done so will hopefully become clear.

I have a faith in a spiritual deity that is not me…and as that spirituality is religion-based I happy to call that deity ‘God’. That said, I am not much of a theologian and though I read the Bible (or have read to me usually once a week on Sundays 😉) I do not carry around in my head and quote chapter and verse out of it - but I do try and live my faith daily.

What do I do? Simple - I use my faith to get me out of self, to provide me with direction, strength and guidance on how to live my life as best I can for those closest to me and those less so…and that often means not doing what I want or what is best for me when there are alternatives less attractive but which can be the ‘right thing to do’. That’s not simple; it’s not easy, it can be difficult and painful, and it carries risks for me.

And fundamental to that for me is forgiveness and prayer. I can and will forgive others of any harm or upset they cause me - and that can be very significant. Such forgiveness is not a forgiveness of excusing, exonerating or ‘letting off’ the perpetrator of the harm or upset - rather it is about handing that harm back to the perpetrator so that I do not carry it around in my head as anger or resentment - for such things are damaging to my well-being and peace of mind. Alongside forgiveness I will pray for the perpetrator of the ill in the hope that they might see the light - the error of their ways - for they too can carry around guilt and that guilt can lead to no good whatsoever. Forgiveness can be very difficult and painful, but forgive I must.

The exemplar of faith of my sort that I keep in mind is that of Gordon Wilson, he of the Enniskillen bombing who was holding the hand of his daughter Marie as they lay trapped under the rubble of the explosion - and as she spoke her last words to him, holding his hand…and then died. In interviews afterwards he spoke of how he had forgiven and prayed for the IRA bombers, and pleaded the Protestant paramilitary groups to refrain from retribution. That his pleas in the aftermath of the bombing were not heeded he worked tirelessly for the peace in NI that was eventually achieved. He was a Methodist and had a strong Christian faith in forgiveness and prayer.

And in reflecting on Gordon Wilson I can compare how he lived his life after the bombing with the families of others who have suffered terrible loss and harm by others and have been unable to forgive - and often their lives have been devastated and ripped apart by the anger and resentment that they carry around.

As said at the start of this my faith just so happens to be grounded in belief of a religious God - and despite all the bad and misfortune that happens in the world to people and by people to others, I hold to a God of love and caring. I feel no need to try and describe or justify this God to others other than perhaps to suggest that, though much if not most can be explained by science and knowledge - there is no 100% proof that such a deity does not exist.

I know that for some, if not most, the above will read as a load of tripe…but that’s my faith for you and I rather expect that - such is as it is.

So on the wider point of faith for any who might wish to think on it. Though my faith is of a similar feeling, it’s not really like being in an airplane and having faith that it will not fall out of the air…that is pretty certain - terrible accidents notwithstanding. The faith I have is of the sort I read described some years ago by the Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks as follows…

Without faith we could not risk the vulnerability of love.
I’m not religious myself, but I do massively respect the good parts of religion. Thanks for taking the time to write what you did. 👍
 
Thought about whether or not to add my tuppence to this - hmm - not sure it’s the best thing for me to do but why I have done so will hopefully become clear.

I have a faith in a spiritual deity that is not me…and as that spirituality is religion-based I happy to call that deity ‘God’. That said, I am not much of a theologian and though I read the Bible (or have read to me usually once a week on Sundays 😉) I do not carry around in my head and quote chapter and verse out of it - but I do try and live my faith daily.

What do I do? Simple - I use my faith to get me out of self, to provide me with direction, strength and guidance on how to live my life as best I can for those closest to me and those less so…and that often means not doing what I want or what is best for me when there are alternatives less attractive but which can be the ‘right thing to do’. That’s not simple; it’s not easy, it can be difficult and painful, and it carries risks for me.

And fundamental to that for me is honesty and recognising when I am wrong and making amends as required, plus forgiveness and prayer. I can and will forgive others of any harm or upset they cause me - and that can be very significant. Such forgiveness is not a forgiveness of excusing, exonerating or ‘letting off’ the perpetrator of the harm or upset - rather it is about handing that harm back to the perpetrator so that I do not carry it around in my head as anger or resentment - for such things are damaging to my well-being and peace of mind. Alongside forgiveness I will pray for the perpetrator of the ill in the hope that they might see the light - the error of their ways - and repent or at least change their ways, for they too can carry around guilt and that guilt can lead to no good whatsoever. Forgiveness can be very difficult and painful, but forgive I must, for as I have been forgiven so must I forgive.

The exemplar of faith of my sort that I keep in mind is that of Gordon Wilson, he of the Enniskillen bombing who was holding the hand of his daughter Marie as they lay trapped under the rubble of the explosion as she spoke her last words to him, holding his hand…and then died. In interviews afterwards he spoke of how he had forgiven and prayed for the IRA bombers, and pleaded with the Protestant paramilitary groups to refrain from retribution. Though his pleas in the aftermath of the bombing were not heeded he worked tirelessly for the peace in NI that was eventually achieved. He was a Methodist and had a strong Christian faith in forgiveness and prayer.

And in reflecting on Gordon Wilson I can compare how he lived his life after the bombing with that of families who have suffered terrible loss and harm by others and have been unable to forgive - and often their lives have been devastated and ripped apart by the anger and resentment that they carry around.

As said at the start of this my faith just so happens to be grounded in belief of a religious God - and despite all the bad and misfortune that happens in the world to people and by people to others, I hold to a God of love and caring. I feel no need to try and describe or justify this God to others other than perhaps to suggest that, though much if not most can be explained by science and knowledge - there is no 100% proof that such a deity does not exist.

I know that for some, if not most, the above will read as a load of tripe…but that’s my faith for you and I rather expect that - such is as it is.

So on the wider point of faith for any who might wish to think on it. Though my faith is of a similar feeling, it’s not really like being in an airplane and having faith that it will not fall out of the air…that is pretty certain - terrible accidents notwithstanding. The faith I have is of the sort I read described some years ago by the Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks as follows…

Without faith we could not risk the vulnerability of love.
It is also possible to be nice and live right by other people just because you can, without the faith and the praying.
I always figure that if I'm kind to a random stranger then they might do the same for somebody else. Hopefully it spreads and eventually a stranger might do something kind for someone I care about.
 
It is also possible to be nice and live right by other people just because you can, without the faith and the praying.
I always figure that if I'm kind to a random stranger then they might do the same for somebody else. Hopefully it spreads and eventually a stranger might do something kind for someone I care about.
you are of course right - it's generally easy enough to be nice to others - I don't need my faith for that.

What I find somewhat harder is to be nice to those who harm or upset me; never mind forgiving those who cause me or others close to me serious upset or who inflict serious harm on me or again on those close to me. Plus doing something I don't want to do when it's not obviously in my best or immediate interests to do it - that can be tough. And then dealing with the toughest breaks in life without getting overwhelmed by them or carrying them with me through life - that's tough - and these are the circumstances when my faith becomes invaluable to me.
 
you are of course right - it's generally easy enough to be nice to others - I don't need my faith for that.

What I find somewhat harder is to be nice to those who harm or upset me; never mind forgiving those who cause me or others close to me serious upset or who inflict serious harm on me or again on those close to me. Plus doing something I don't want to do when it's not obviously in my best or immediate interests to do it - that can be tough. And then dealing with the toughest breaks in life without getting overwhelmed by them or carrying them with me through life - that's tough - and these are the circumstances when my faith becomes invaluable to me.
Yeah, fair comment. I glossed over that aspect of it. Anyone deliberately causes harm to me, those I love or even a stranger who can't defend themself and I'll do what I can to even the score.
 
Yeah, fair comment. I glossed over that aspect of it. Anyone deliberately causes harm to me, those I love or even a stranger who can't defend themself and I'll do what I can to even the score.
There’s perhaps a pointer to the difference in the way I’d try and deal with such a personal harm - the way exemplified by Gordon Wilson.

I, my family and all of my wider family were caused terrible upset and distress by my brother-in-law when my sister fell ill and died (I won’t go into it but it was dreadfully upsetting). I have had to forgive him what he did, and I told him that at the time. Indeed in the three years since then I call him once a year to ask him how he is and whether or not he needs any support (he has difficult medical conditions) - and I don't ask him why he did and acted as he did. It’s not easy but I knew I had and have to do it and that I could…otherwise I’d be carrying fury and resentments around with me for possibly the rest of my life.

I do this despite him not having expressed any remorse or regret whatsoever…but that is actually neither here nor there in the context of me doing what I do…though it would be nice if he did see his way..🤷‍♂️
 
Last edited:
It's fair and reasonable for someone to hold an opinion on religion although like other topics an opinion should be formed by making a determined effort to understand the subject.

Has the OP studied the religions he comments on or are his comments formed by cherry picked publications that are using quotes and extracts completely out of context. How many have read the Bible or Koran before dismissing them, how many have made an attempt to understand the context of
their story before decrying them. It's a bit like climate change, it's easy to proclaim or deny without making an effort to study it, to pull out bits and pieces of the overall subject and ridicule or support something by lazy knee jerk reaction.
Believe it or deny by all means but make a reasonable attempt to form an unbiased view based not on what many churches and sects wish to put out.
 
Last edited:
As a kid I was told there is a God, and I supposed I believed it. Just like I believed in Santa and the tooth fairy. But once I got old enough to think about it logically, it is just something that never had me convinced, and I do not believe in it at all as an adult.

Firstly, it just seems weird that there have been so many different religions, and people have been very strong in their views depending on what part of the world they are from or what course of history they have lived. Only weird if it was actually true. Not weird if religious beliefs were made up by man and spread to those around them.

Secondly, century's ago religion seemed a very useful idea for humans to play with. Scientific knowledge was lacking, and humans always want to know answers. So, for all the great unknowns, dreaming up of an all powerful being that created everything seemed a pretty good theory. Even better, you could use this all powerful being as a threat to people that would step out of place, and help justify punishing them. I'd imagine policing centuries ago was also pretty non-existent, so setting up a few key commands from the almighty God himself was a great idea.

I've no issue with the millions of religious people who use it as a comfort to them, although I'd hope their morality was based more on them just wanting to be a good person rather than trying to behave in a way they think their God wants them to act. It is also scary that there are elements of the human race who are capable of doing extraordinarily awful things purely on how they interpret their religion. Not just today, but all throughout history, from many many different religions.

I don't know what the reality is. I guess we may very well just start to exist, and then one day cease to exist. But, the sheer scale and almost infinite size of the universe is fascinating, so God knows ( :) ) what else will be discovered in the years to come, well beyond my lifetime.
 
Top