Anybody watching the England match in London tonight?

[Andy808]

Although I agree that we don't have the quality of players in the team at the moment due to whatever reason the manager still has a lot to do with how that team plays.
Look at other teams that have had manager changes and how differently those teams are performing. Some have improved with the change and some are looking like they have lost their way with teams that are essentially the same as they were under the previous manager.
If the manager plays an overly safe, defensive formation and tells the team they "only have to draw" then you end up with poor football that is boring and embarrassing to watch. With a different manager with a more attacking ethos is in charge you may not win, you may still draw but you always have a chance of winning if you go out and score goals.
That was the mindset of Fergie. He didn't care if you scored his team would score one more than you. So often it worked with UTD winning in the last 10 minutes of the game. Moyes doesn't seem to have the same conviction to the cause. He has exactly the same team but it's not performing anywhere near to the standard it was last season.
The England team need a manager more like Fergie than Woy, a manager that can get players who aren't quiet up to the standard needed playing with conviction, a manager that isn't happy with a draw and can get the dressing room buzzing and hungry for success. All that game showed us is the Ukraine is the level we are playing at with the manager and team we have.

 

[Rooter]

Why?What makes England so much better than Ukraine?The EPL is a decent league, but it's populated by players from places like Spain,Germany and er, Ukraine.England as a footballing nation is tier 2 edging towards tier 3 and everyone outside England knows it.The assumption by England supporters and your media that you should be challenging for WC's is a really funny joke only English people don't get.

And before anyone else says it, Scotland are tier 3 heading towards tier 4, but at least we acknowledge it.

No i agree with you Adi, TODAY we are poor, but if you look at English football at a league level, we are competitive to the best teams in Spain, Germany etc. BUT... the Spanish teams, Germans etc play with a large proportion of home grown players, the english league is too dependent on foreign players. it needs a 1 step forward, 3 back approach. Bring back minimum quota of local players i say, OK we wont be challenging for champions league spots for a few years+ but will fundamentally improve the national team. However, this will never happen as the money and rewards are too great at the highest level of club football. Basically, we are screwed.

 

[Andy808]

No i agree with you Adi, TODAY we are poor, but if you look at English football at a league level, we are competitive to the best teams in Spain, Germany etc. BUT... the Spanish teams, Germans etc play with a large proportion of home grown players, the english league is too dependent on foreign players. it needs a 1 step forward, 3 back approach. Bring back minimum quota of local players i say, OK we wont be challenging for champions league spots for a few years+ but will fundamentally improve the national team. However, this will never happen as the money and rewards are too great at the highest level of club football. Basically, we are screwed.

Isn't this what Greg Dyke wants to bring back in. I have no problem with a minimum home grown players quota for all teams. But that has it's own problems as they are classed as players who have come through a club academy but not necessarily players eligible to play for the national team which it should be.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

No i agree with you Adi, TODAY we are poor, but if you look at English football at a league level, we are competitive to the best teams in Spain, Germany etc. BUT... the Spanish teams, Germans etc play with a large proportion of home grown players, the english league is too dependent on foreign players. it needs a 1 step forward, 3 back approach. Bring back minimum quota of local players i say, OK we wont be challenging for champions league spots for a few years+ but will fundamentally improve the national team. However, this will never happen as the money and rewards are too great at the highest level of club football. Basically, we are screwed.

Yes you are.The issue comes from having The EPL and The FA with different agendas.The EPL cares not one jot about your national team, neither does SKY really.So they promote the myth that club > country enough that people start to believe it...there will be people on here who believe it.Those same people probably started liking football about 92/93.

So the TV company that effectively owns the top division in England dislikes international football, meaning the clubs that should be the production line for England Internationals dislike international football even more than they used to because their cash cow tells them to.

England are goosed and I can't see a way out.Scotland less so as we have no mega TV boss, so we can reach a nadir then take action...England don't have that option.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I think Greg Dykes recent summary of England as a football nation was spot on.
To few players in the top league system.
When you have teams like Swindon and Doncaster signing non English players you know the system is bust.

I can see the SFA system at a reasonably close level and it is very impressive.
My grandson [7] plays for a local boys club. The same coaches take the boys right through from first [under 7's] to final [under 17's] years. That is a massive 10 year commitment.
His step brother plays in the under 14's team and is in the Scottish under 14's squad. Dropped him off for training last night to see 10 teams of about 14 kids and 20 coaches working 10 separate well organised sessions.

 

[Andy808]

I think Greg Dykes recent summary of England as a football nation was spot on.
To few players in the top league system.
When you have teams like Swindon and Doncaster signing non English players you know the system is bust.

I can see the SFA system at a reasonably close level and it is very impressive.
My grandson [7] plays for a local boys club. The same coaches take the boys right through from first [under 7's] to final [under 17's] years. That is a massive 10 year commitment.
His step brother plays in the under 14's team and is in the Scottish under 14's squad. Dropped him off for training last night to see 10 teams of about 14 kids and 20 coaches working 10 separate well organised sessions.

Great to see that level of commitment from the coaches and players. I have a nephew who is playing for the Ayr Utd academy and doing very well from the extended coaching he has had throughout his young playing career.

 

[Hacker Khan]

. the Spanish teams, Germans etc play with a large proportion of home grown players,.

True, look at these stats http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/default/gastarbeiterstartseite/basics.html

70% are overseas players in the EPL, 24% in the German league, 40% in Spain.

Wales, Albania and Peru all have more players playing in Spain than England does. And I can't remember many teams fighting over Jack Wiltshire's signature in the last transfer window, arguably the saviour of English football.

 

[Hacker Khan]

The assumption by England supporters and your media that you should be challenging for WC's is a really funny joke only English people don't get..

To be fair I think a vast majority of sensible England supporters and the media know that we are not good enough to go past quarter finals in tournaments. And the England supporter and media that thinks we will win the world cup is a bit of a relic from a bygone age, sometimes used more as a tool to have a go at the English rather than it being a reality.

Not saying they do not exists as you will always get supporters of football teams who refuse to accept reality and live in the past, but most sensible pundits know what the score is. Which seems to be hold out for a 0-0 draw nowadays.

 

[woody69]

I don't buy all this "home grown" rubbish. We had nearly 80 or 90% of English players in our top league in the 70's and 80's and look how good we were then? If anything, foreign players will improve the English ones as they will have to work harder in a more competitive workplace to get better. Competition IMPROVES standards, it doesn't reduce it.

 

[ger147]

Home grown player quotas are illegal. Freedom of movement within the EU prevents any such quotas.

 

[Birchy]

What's crazy are the only people who expect us to win the world cup are the press. Then they start slaughtering the team at any time it gets a bit bumpy. If we don't batter everybody 5-0 they pipe up and then loads of muppets jump on the badwaggon.

Ive not met one England fan who honestly thinks we will win the world cup, it would be nice but it will be very very difficult. Theres always a chance if we are in it, even if it is very small.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I don't buy all this "home grown" rubbish. We had nearly 80 or 90% of English players in our top league in the 70's and 80's and look how good we were then? If anything, foreign players will improve the English ones as they will have to work harder in a more competitive workplace to get better. Competition IMPROVES standards, it doesn't reduce it.

The 70s and 80s were a different era football wise, you can't say just because something worked in a football sense in the 70s and 80s it will still work now. Just ask any Liverpool fan.

I do get the theory that an increase in standards means that they should work harder. But by the time they get to the clubs and get into competition with overseas players it is often too late. An English player is not suddenly going to become comfortable on the ball and be able to keep possession easily at the age of 17 just because someone else is.

What the huge relative percentage of foreign players is doing is restricting the chances for up and coming English players who may have the required attributes to get some experience and move on in their career. Yes there is a big argument to say that they should drop down a level to do this, much like Ferguson tended to do with young United players. But for some players I am sure they are quite happy getting 20 grand a week and playing in the Carling Cup now and then. They are happy and the club are happy as they use more skilful overseas players when it matters. But the great loser is the national team.

 

[Snelly]

England are poor. The Premier League is everything. Totally different agenda to the well being of the national team. Give the Premier League control of the England team an things might improve.

 

[Hacker Khan]

What's crazy are the only people who expect us to win the world cup are the press. Then they start slaughtering the team at any time it gets a bit bumpy. If we don't batter everybody 5-0 they pipe up and then loads of muppets jump on the badwaggon.

Ive not met one England fan who honestly thinks we will win the world cup, it would be nice but it will be very very difficult. Theres always a chance if we are in it, even if it is very small.

And I have not read one newspaper or heard any comment on any radio station that thinks England will win the world cup. Yes I have heard/read lots of disappointment at the current form with them saying with the resources available in the English game they should be doing better. But feel free to link me to any article in any appear that says we will win the world cup any time soon.

 

[woody69]

The 70s and 80s were a different era football wise, you can't say just because something worked in a football sense in the 70s and 80s it will still work now. Just ask any Liverpool fan.

I do get the theory that an increase in standards means that they should work harder. But by the time they get to the clubs and get into competition with overseas players it is often too late. An English player is not suddenly going to become comfortable on the ball and be able to keep possession easily at the age of 17 just because someone else is.

What the huge relative percentage of foreign players is doing is restricting the chances for up and coming English players who may have the required attributes to get some experience and move on in their career. Yes there is a big argument to say that they should drop down a level to do this, much like Ferguson tended to do with young United players. But for some players I am sure they are quite happy getting 20 grand a week and playing in the Carling Cup now and then. They are happy and the club are happy as they use more skilful overseas players when it matters. But the great loser is the national team.

The problem lies in how football is taught at grass roots. In England players as young as 9 or 10 are put on full size pitches and it is only the players that are bigger, more powerful that are picked up. It's all about strength and less about skill. In Spain, Germany etc the focus is on skill and the ball. Games are played on smaller pitches with smaller footballs. It's no surprise that more and more foreign players are coming into the Premier League. It's because the majority of young English players aren't as good! And that naturally reflects on to the national team!

If a quota was ever introduced (which it won't be) it will simply mean a drop in standard of the premier league. It won't suddenly mean we have a larger pool of quality players to pick from

 

[Birchy]

And I have not read one newspaper or heard any comment on any radio station that thinks England will win the world cup. Yes I have heard/read lots of disappointment at the current form with them saying with the resources available in the English game they should be doing better. But feel free to link me to any article in any appear that says we will win the world cup any time soon.

Leading up to every world cup they are always printing stuff like we should be getting to the final or we can do it.

Just before you start twisting this with your usual daily mail rollocks I said "expect us to win it" which is what the press seem to do.

All this crap about the resources is nonsense too, its not like Spain, Italy, Brazil, Germany etc are training with no shoes on is it.

The England team get hammered in the press for any little thing and you know it. England are top of the group in pole position to qualify for the world cup. They got a good result last night despite having a few key injuries/suspensions but yet they still get slated.

 

[Dodger]

England have truly competed at only 3 major tourneys in the last 65 years and 2 of those were at home yet their support appear to think they have a devine right to be a footballing super power.

Odd.

ABE :smirk:

 

[Robobum]

England have truly competed at only 3 major tourneys in the last 65 years and 2 of those were at home yet their support appear to think they have a devine right to be a footballing super power.

Odd.

ABE :smirk:

That's just the deluded view of the other home countries though Dodger.

What England supporters have is the knowledge that we are able to compete at major tournaments - and if progression out of the group is secured then itis anyone's game in a one off.

All the pens defeats England have had could have been oh so different - that's the fine margins.

We all live in hope - we hope to challenge at a big tournament and you hope there's something decent on the other side

 

[Deleted member 1418]

The problem lies in how football is taught at grass roots. In England players as young as 9 or 10 are put on full size pitches and it is only the players that are bigger, more powerful that are picked up. It's all about strength and less about skill. In Spain, Germany etc the focus is on skill and the ball. Games are played on smaller pitches with smaller footballs.

Under current FA guidelines, children are playing small sided matches, on smaller pitches, with smaller goals and footballs. For example at my club, our U7s play 5 a-side, and my current U9 team plays 7 a-side. In addition the onus is now on development football rather than competitive (my current U9s will not be able to play 'competitive' football - results and league tables published - until they are U12s). In addition, when a team is taking a goal kick, the opposing players have to retreat to their own half and can only start to move when the ball leaves the penalty area - this will hopefully encourage playing out from the back. But as I said in my earlier post, whilst this is commendable, it's what other nations have been doing for years!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Yes.....I can remember the 70's and 80 when great English League players like
Souness, Brady, Dalgliesh, Bremner, Gray E, McKlintock, O'Leary, Hughes.M, Hanson etc were the stars

Our 7 year old's play 5 a side with mini goals and no goalie.
They learn quickly about defense that way.