Is 90k pay middle class

[PJ87]

The rent trap is a society problem caused by rules limiting how much you're allowed to borrow as a mortgage.
It's scandalous that people who are considered not able to pay a mortgage of £X are deemed able to pay £X in rent to a landlord - in order to pay his buy-to-let mortgage!

Precisely Clive! You can't been shown to be a good credit even if you have never missed rent in 10 years it's mental

 

[PJ87]

I remember going for an accountancy job, notoriously poor pay. I qualified with an engineering degree and he wanted to pay me £7k on the basis he was going to take me through their qualifications. I binned him off for a £17k contract at Dagenham with a view to chopping that in to another role in 6 months and getting to £30k in 48months as a bare minimum.
We chose not to start our family till we were financially stable .. yes we are old parents but these are the choices we made.
As I said its choices .. compromise will participate throughout.

What do you do if you already have a family? You do what's best for them don't you. Sure they could have waited to start but also when they started COVID hadn't hit, the Ukraine war hadn't happened, he hadn't lost his job during COVID

All things that set back the decision that seemed right at the time

Like Clive said, the rent trap is very much a thing

 

[Voyager EMH]

There is no scorn or derision here, these people exist .. sadly. I appreciate opportunities are not freely handed out and it’s hard to recognise one. Perhaps more help is required but there are things that people can do but choose not to do.. I have chosen not to do them myself and I hope I don’t have to do them but life throws you bumps and curveballs .. if it needs to be done it will be done.

I have given my attention to the plight of poor people in the past, but I never came across what you describe as poverty as a lifestyle choice.
Generally what I found was uneducated or poorly educated or severely impaired or severely disaffected people unable to find, by themselves, opportunities to improve their life.

Like I said previously, it would be very interesting to hear all the details about such a person, if one can be found.

 

[harpo_72]

What do you do if you already have a family? You do what's best for them don't you. Sure they could have waited to start but also when they started COVID hadn't hit, the Ukraine war hadn't happened, he hadn't lost his job during COVID

All things that set back the decision that seemed right at the time

Like Clive said, the rent trap is very much a thing

Yeah Covid was a curve ball I got my 3rd redundancy just before it started .. but we had provisions in place. I remember sitting in the pub waiting for the boy to do his drama class ( word of advice - don’t do it) we worked out what we had how long we had and how to maximise the time out of work. But I knew I was not entitled to state support because I had assets .. the thing is everything you work to get goes in an instant. It’s snakes and ladders for us all .. but you choose your industry and believe me I was seriously miffed and thought I would be stacking shelves or delivering parcels .. or training to be an electrician or plumber

 

[harpo_72]

Precisely Clive! You can't been shown to be a good credit even if you have never missed rent in 10 years it's mental

There is an issue here and that is the affordability calculation .. don’t fall in to the trap of oh I can have this amount be realistic think about interest rate increases .. for me I look at interest rate rises as bad economic management and that’s an instant red flag

 

[4LEX]

The rent trap is a society problem caused by rules limiting how much you're allowed to borrow as a mortgage.
It's scandalous that people who are considered not able to pay a mortgage of £X are deemed able to pay £X in rent to a landlord - in order to pay his buy-to-let mortgage!

Those are different things though.

Renting doesn't require a huge loan, hence why there's less affordability checks. If you fail to pay, you get kicked out and lose your deposit. If you default on a mortgage it's a different matter entirely. Do you want the banks to take more risks when it comes to lending? We all remember what happened when they did that don't we....

The real problem is a shortage of houses and an unsustainable increase in the population that is only going to continue. Throw in the net zero scam and you've got rent way higher than it needs to be, energy prices way higher than they need to be and it's the renters who suffer.

 

[PJ87]

Those are different things though.

Renting doesn't require a huge loan, hence why there's less affordability checks. If you fail to pay, you get kicked out and lose your deposit. If you default on a mortgage it's a different matter entirely. Do you want the banks to take more risks when it comes to lending? We all remember what happened when they did that don't we....

The real problem is a shortage of houses and an unsustainable increase in the population that is only going to continue. Throw in the net zero scam and you've got rent way higher than it needs to be, energy prices way higher than they need to be and it's the renters who suffer.

Its the same. If you default on the mortgage you also get kicked out. And you lose your deposit

The bank keep your house and sell it. They then get their money back

 

[harpo_72]

Those are different things though.

Renting doesn't require a huge loan, hence why there's less affordability checks. If you fail to pay, you get kicked out and lose your deposit. If you default on a mortgage it's a different matter entirely. Do you want the banks to take more risks when it comes to lending? We all remember what happened when they did that don't we....

The real problem is a shortage of houses and an unsustainable increase in the population that is only going to continue. Throw in the net zero scam and you've got rent way higher than it needs to be, energy prices way higher than they need to be and it's the renters who suffer.

Renters who default do not get kicked out, they have a number of systems that protect them. They can sit in residence and not pay rent for the term of the agreement.. it’s a total misnomer that they will be forced onto the street.
Also the landlord cannot just raise rental rates these have to be negotiated and then instigated over a set time period.
Most renters are oblivious to the rise in mortgage rates and have been shielded from them by their landlords and legislation.
Basically raising interest rates to fix the economy doesn’t work, the impact is to only hit those who have managed to invest wisely whilst those who haven’t and are living beyond their means take advantage and the untouchables or dishonest wealthy can snap up a bargain investment from those 2nd home owners who have been overly squeezed.
As stated there are 2 sides to every coin and … and let’s not get started about capital gains tax on 2nd properties that’s another institutional tool to keep the working people oppressed if they even consider selling up and living off their hard work.

 

[PJ87]

Renters who default do not get kicked out, they have a number of systems that protect them. They can sit in residence and not pay rent for the term of the agreement.. it’s a total misnomer that they will be forced onto the street.
Also the landlord cannot just raise rental rates these have to be negotiated and then instigated over a set time period.
Most renters are oblivious to the rise in mortgage rates and have been shielded from them by their landlords and legislation.
Basically raising interest rates to fix the economy doesn’t work, the impact is to only hit those who have managed to invest wisely whilst those who haven’t and are living beyond their means take advantage and the untouchables or dishonest wealthy can snap up a bargain investment from those 2nd home owners who have been overly squeezed.
As stated there are 2 sides to every coin and … and let’s not get started about capital gains tax on 2nd properties that’s another institutional tool to keep the working people oppressed if they even consider selling up and living off their hard work.

Rent can be raised at the end of any lease though with zero negotiation.

Renters have very little protection

The fact that they can be no fault evicted right now proves how unstable it is to be a renter and why the law is being changed to protect families

 

[harpo_72]

Rent can be raised at the end of any lease though with zero negotiation.

Renters have very little protection

The fact that they can be no fault evicted right now proves how unstable it is to be a renter and why the law is being changed to protect families

They cannot be evicted that easily.. just not possible even if they don’t pay they can stay.
Renters have enough protection and if they don’t feel they do then they should look to get out.
Imagine the situation, your dishwasher breaks .. you have o do something about it but you can’t get the repair done within a week or you cannot replace with in a week…
Renters don’t have this issue, they ring up the management company who asks the landlord to pick up the bill for the maintenance/installation team .. life’s a piece of cake no extra costs no repercussions for abusing appliances etc .. no worry about maintenance just live there trash it and walk away.

 

[PJ87]

They cannot be evicted that easily.. just not possible even if they don’t pay they can stay.
Renters have enough protection and if they don’t feel they do then they should look to get out.
Imagine the situation, your dishwasher breaks .. you have o do something about it but you can’t get the repair done within a week or you cannot replace with in a week…
Renters don’t have this issue, they ring up the management company who asks the landlord to pick up the bill for the maintenance/installation team .. life’s a piece of cake no extra costs no repercussions for abusing appliances etc .. no worry about maintenance just live there trash it and walk away.

I can't actually believe anybody can claim that renters have it easy tbh.

My mates last house she lived with a leaky roof for a year of temp rubbish repairs because he just sold the house from under them. In the same time the ring main went and they had a very dangerous fault in the wiring that could have burned the house down. Landlord took more than a month to have fixed

I'm guessing you have rented out a house and have had bad experiences? Because I'm sorry you have a VERY one sided view of life in rented houses.

Speak to some renters about issues and read into it..because you seem to think it's all Rosey and Dandy.

 

[Neilds]

I can't actually believe anybody can claim that renters have it easy tbh.

My mates last house she lived with a leaky roof for a year of temp rubbish repairs because he just sold the house from under them. In the same time the ring main went and they had a very dangerous fault in the wiring that could have burned the house down. Landlord took more than a month to have fixed

I'm guessing you have rented out a house and have had bad experiences? Because I'm sorry you have a VERY one sided view of life in rented houses.

Speak to some renters about issues and read into it..because you seem to think it's all Rosey and Dandy.

I think you are both guilty from seeing it from one side -there are good and bad on both sides of the rental spectrum

 

[PJ87]

I think you are both guilty from seeing it from one side -there are good and bad on both sides of the rental spectrum

Of course there are bad tenants , nobody is disputing that but to suggest that renters can simply "get out" of the market is ridiculous and out of touch with the current situation in the UK

I regret being a renter - we were evicted as my daughter started school

I loved the flexibility of renting, but a sudden no-fault eviction has upended family life and cost us thousands

inews.co.uk

Renters earn more than first-time buyers - but can’t get on property ladder

Experts say in parts of the UK, getting on the housing ladder is dependent on having access to the Bank of Mum and Dad

inews.co.uk

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/party-home-ownership-trapped-renting-3104888

The people stuck renting who can't afford to retire - BBC News

A growing number of older renters are struggling as rents rise and the cost of living increases.

www.bbc.co.uk

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jul/23/rent-trap-keeps-young-off-housing-ladder

 

[harpo_72]

Of course there are bad tenants , nobody is disputing that but to suggest that renters can simply "get out" of the market is ridiculous and out of touch with the current situation in the UK

I regret being a renter - we were evicted as my daughter started school

I loved the flexibility of renting, but a sudden no-fault eviction has upended family life and cost us thousands

inews.co.uk

Renters earn more than first-time buyers - but can’t get on property ladder

Experts say in parts of the UK, getting on the housing ladder is dependent on having access to the Bank of Mum and Dad

inews.co.uk

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/party-home-ownership-trapped-renting-3104888

The people stuck renting who can't afford to retire - BBC News

A growing number of older renters are struggling as rents rise and the cost of living increases.

www.bbc.co.uk

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jul/23/rent-trap-keeps-young-off-housing-ladder

The first title says it was a choice .. for flexibility.. then they chose badly

If you go for the cheapest rental property that’s managed by a landlord and not a proper management service/3rd party then it’s going to be risky.

It’s all choices, always has been always will be and moaning about the choices you make and trying to pass that blame on isn’t fair .. if you hit the ball in the bunker who’s fault is that?

It’s like saying there are no winners and losers … it’s just taking part .. it’s utter rubbish. Your promoting a lack of responsibility and not my fault culture..
Bad stuff happens but you have to bounce back or beat it .. if the landlord isn’t doing a good job seek legal redress make it his/her problem don’t suffer it and whinge .. or get out and use the flexibility to go elsewhere.. hell why not stop going on expensive holidays and use that money, or negotiate with your employer for something mutually acceptable like wfh .. stop rolling over and start to push back.

 

[PJ87]

The first title says it was a choice .. for flexibility.. then they chose badly

If you go for the cheapest rental property that’s managed by a landlord and not a proper management service/3rd party then it’s going to be risky.

It’s all choices, always has been always will be and moaning about the choices you make and trying to pass that blame on isn’t fair .. if you hit the ball in the bunker who’s fault is that?

It’s like saying there are no winners and losers … it’s just taking part .. it’s utter rubbish. Your promoting a lack of responsibility and not my fault culture..
Bad stuff happens but you have to bounce back or beat it .. if the landlord isn’t doing a good job seek legal redress make it his/her problem don’t suffer it and whinge .. or get out and use the flexibility to go elsewhere.. hell why not stop going on expensive holidays and use that money, or negotiate with your employer for something mutually acceptable like wfh .. stop rolling over and start to push back.

This is such a daily mail cliche into renters

Like they all must go on holiday. Have the latest phones. Cars on credit (when hardly any of this is true)

If they stopped having Netflix's suddenly house ownership will be more affordable

 

[BrianM]

This is such a daily mail cliche into renters

Like they all must go on holiday. Have the latest phones. Cars on credit (when hardly any of this is true)

If they stopped having Netflix's suddenly house ownership will be more affordable

Stop being so naive, there is good and bad from both sides of the coin.
Some renters have good deals with cracking landlords, others don’t.

 

[PJ87]

Stop being so naive, there is good and bad from both sides of the coin.
Some renters have good deals with cracking landlords, others don’t.

dont get me wrong SOME renters do but not all by any means.

Two guys I work with one is a landlord that never passes on the mortage rises just waits for the next tennant and will go in. paint the place and increase the rent. however he is selling all his rentals up now (retiring) so all his tennants will become no fault evictions.

another guy has rented for years, his deal with his landlord is he will do all the odd repairs around the house for him. he is a sparky on here so he can do anything but gas really. so that keeps his rent reasonable

however for every good landlord you have 4 crap ones.

whilst I do believe we have a very weird view in this country that we have to own our houses and should look to europe where rental is more common but we need to get the protections in place, with the rent controls to make it reasonable and affordable.

 

[BrianM]

dont get me wrong SOME renters do but not all by any means.

Two guys I work with one is a landlord that never passes on the mortage rises just waits for the next tennant and will go in. paint the place and increase the rent. however he is selling all his rentals up now (retiring) so all his tennants will become no fault evictions.

another guy has rented for years, his deal with his landlord is he will do all the odd repairs around the house for him. he is a sparky on here so he can do anything but gas really. so that keeps his rent reasonable

however for every good landlord you have 4 crap ones.

whilst I do believe we have a very weird view in this country that we have to own our houses and should look to europe where rental is more common but we need to get the protections in place, with the rent controls to make it reasonable and affordable.

1 in 4 are crap is absolute nonsense, a made up figure from nowhere.
Most landlords aren’t going to let their property get destroyed or not looked after as it is their asset.
As someone who has had rental properties and a holiday house, I’m pretty well versed on what is required.
Have you got any experience in this field or just what you read online…

 

[PJ87]

1 in 4 are crap is absolute nonsense, a made up figure from nowhere.
Most landlords aren’t going to let their property get destroyed or not looked after as it is their asset.
As someone who has had rental properties and a holiday house, I’m pretty well versed on what is required.
Have you got any experience in this field or just what you read online…

From what i experience through friends and family over the years who have rented.

As i stated my best friend and her husband are stuck renting

their last house was a state and the landlord was crap. however they simply couldnt afford to move

only when they go a no fault eviction did they have to take a £200 a month hit to rent somewhere else which isnt as big as the previous place but the landlord is a LOT better and the property is in much of a better state of repair.

 

[harpo_72]

From what i experience through friends and family over the years who have rented.

As i stated my best friend and her husband are stuck renting

their last house was a state and the landlord was crap. however they simply couldnt afford to move

only when they go a no fault eviction did they have to take a £200 a month hit to rent somewhere else which isnt as big as the previous place but the landlord is a LOT better and the property is in much of a better state of repair.

To give some perspective we took a £700 hit per month on the mortgage and only passed on a £100 because of “market rate” . I was happy to terminate at the end of the agreement and get it sale ready … I am fed up of the over management and general entitlement attitude.
We got to this position because we over paid our mortgage got a larger equity, went without, didn’t have brand new cars ( could have had a Porsche but instead had an MX5, could have had 2 foreign holidays a year, a restaurant meal 2 times a week , been a member at some posh club for a couple grand, could have had designer clothes… the list goes on .. but we didn’t and we still don’t because we don’t need them .. apart from my TSR1 driver that’s definitely required!)
Hence me saying they are insulated from mortgage rates and changes.
Your man not passing on these costs is just him knowing he cannot negotiate the change until a break point. So he is sucking up an extra cost and supporting another family that’s not his own, he is a great guy … don’t think anything less of him.


No fault eviction is a very colourful term, which should be referred to cashing out because the asset is costing more than it is making.. and your renter can then buy it if they have the funds.

Life isn’t rosey on the landlord side. I would saying flipping them is the way forward but even then you have to be a damn shrewd because property can bite you hard