Another stack-n-tilt thread - oh no!!

[bobmac]

If I may say one thing.
I think people are getting confused with the "clubface open for a draw and closed for a fade"
James, I take it you mean for a draw it is open to the ball to target line but closed to the swing path and the same for the fade...closed to the ball to target line but open to the swing path?

 

[JustOne]

@ Hawkeye.....

I'd probably have kept my old swing if I had 100hrs per week to play/practice. Thing is most of us don't have that chance but still want to play better than our current level.
It's an option and that's all there is to it.

 

[Robobum]

Jouk - What is your ball flight like with your driver??

The reason i ask is that if I want to hit a low "stinger" (poor word for the description but bear with me!) with my driver either into the wind or as a safety shot (steer) to get the ball on the ground and running quickly, I'll set up in what to me seems similar to this S&T move.

Weight predominantly on the front foot, and stays there through backswing the only thing I don't do (not conciously anyway) is to straighten the left leg and hip slide. I just try to keep the feeling of "covering" the ball with my chest.

The result of which is that it barely gets above 20feet or so in the air??

 

[JustOne]

If I may say one thing.
I think people are getting confused with the "clubface open for a draw and closed for a fade"
James, I take it you mean for a draw it is open to the ball to target line but closed to the swing path and the same for the fade...closed to the ball to target line but open to the swing path?

Yes that is right Bob, at address my clubface sits about 20° open on the ground (aiming well right) but my swingpath comes from the inside at about 25-30°.

Generally most players would think that they need the clubface either square at address or even closed to the target line if they want to draw/hook the ball.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I then watch the PGA Tour and I'll see Luke Donald with his picture perfect swing coming 2nd to Jim Furyk who looks like an Octopus knitting a jumper.

I'll see Dustin Johnson hitting the ball a country mile with a take-away that looks remarkably similar to the one I've been having taught out of me for the last 9 months and would make most teaching pro's cringe.

What they all have in common is they all deliver the clubhead back to the ball in a position that sends the ball towards the target. It matters not how it gets there.

Whatever works for you is a good golf swing, nothing else really matters.

What about the likes of Trevino, Daly, Miller etc all of whom had unique swings but got the job done. It is all about getting the ball to go where you want it to whether that is a S&T draw played with an open face coming from the inside or setting up closed and swinging down the address position as is the more conventional manner. As long as you have control of the club at the beginning, top of the swing and back into impact and through there is no definite way to swing it.

The only caveat I'd add to those saying S&T isn't the right way to go because no-one teaches it is to go back 30 years before players started using fitness coaches, dieticians, equipment trucks etc. The game will always evolve and grow and it will only take one player to break through and win a significant event to get others to look at it as an option.

 

[JustOne]

Jouk - What is your ball flight like with your driver??

The reason i ask is that if I want to hit a low "stinger" (poor word for the description but bear with me!) with my driver either into the wind or as a safety shot (steer) to get the ball on the ground and running quickly, I'll set up in what to me seems similar to this S&T move.

Weight predominantly on the front foot, and stays there through backswing the only thing I don't do (not conciously anyway) is to straighten the left leg and hip slide. I just try to keep the feeling of "covering" the ball with my chest.

The result of which is that it barely gets above 20feet or so in the air??

I'm not a touring pro mate, I've been on the practice ground 3hrs this entire year. I'm sure some people whom I've played with on the forum have seen me hit some 'very nice' shots but I also don't exactly play outta my skin every time I tee it up. I've had some total nightmare rounds this year often compounded by a problem I have in my left wrist but on a good day I can knock it pretty well and have beaten my h/cap by 4 or more shots about 20 times this year.

So to answer your question.. in general I'd GUESS that when hitting a draw it goes in the 50 - 60ft range.

What you are describing as your stinger sounds perfectly ok to me, you must be delofting the club to keep it so low which is fine when you are shaping shots, however I figure if you needed a 260yd carry then you'd have to learn how to get that loft back on.

 

[percy_layer]

I then watch the PGA Tour and I'll see Luke Donald with his picture perfect swing coming 2nd to Jim Furyk who looks like an Octopus knitting a jumper.

I'll see Dustin Johnson hitting the ball a country mile with a take-away that looks remarkably similar to the one I've been having taught out of me for the last 9 months and would make most teaching pro's cringe.

What they all have in common is they all deliver the clubhead back to the ball in a position that sends the ball towards the target. It matters not how it gets there.

Whatever works for you is a good golf swing, nothing else really matters.

What about the likes of Trevino, Daly, Miller etc all of whom had unique swings but got the job done. It is all about getting the ball to go where you want it to whether that is a S&T draw played with an open face coming from the inside or setting up closed and swinging down the address position as is the more conventional manner. As long as you have control of the club at the beginning, top of the swing and back into impact and through there is no definite way to swing it.

The only caveat I'd add to those saying S&T isn't the right way to go because no-one teaches it is to go back 30 years before players started using fitness coaches, dieticians, equipment trucks etc. The game will always evolve and grow and it will only take one player to break through and win a significant event to get others to look at it as an option.

I've got the videos of Seve winning his 3 Open Championships. The video from 1979 shows some players with very unique swings and i would expect even stranger techniques to be used in earlier years.
Trevino, Daly and Miller were and are great ball strikers but would a golf coach teach their swing styles? and would a good coach try and alter these players techniques considering how well they control a golf ball?
What i would like to know though, now that S&T has been around for a while and has a small presence on tour, why do so few golf coaches teach it?

 

[percy_layer]

And why the coaches that do teach S&T do so?

 

[AuburnWarrior]

I don't understand all of this!

May I just walk up and hit the ball?

We all have different swings - some better than others but I would say that we're not good enough to 're-model' our swings a la Faldo, Harrington, etc. We've got to work with what we've got!

Unlucky Smiffy.........

 

[JustOne]

What i would like to know though, now that S&T has been around for a while and has a small presence on tour, why do so few golf coaches teach it?

I can only speculate on that... it got off to a bad start because no-one understood it and the guys who 'invented' it were total idiots, keeping themselves to themselves and leaving everyone to their own devices. It subsequently got driven down into the ground by the nay sayers and has struggled to recover ever since. Subsequently the PGA hasn't yet acknowledged it with any credit whatsoever even though it's had a huge impact on golf already, Tiger Woods is being taught by a student of S&T, no big deal... by WHY did Sean Foley bother being a student of S&T in the first place if it was rubbish? Lot's of players are more centered over the ball now than have ever been, more amateurs are going to adopt that as it becomes more common place, and more talked about. More players have a 'one plane swing' nowadays than ever before...these things aren't accidents, it's geometry bought about by technology. For the first time in golfing history we are actually able to see what is going on before, during and after a swing... and the masses have access to that information.

I spend 15+ years loading up my right hand side and trying to hit a draw with a square clubface because a 'pro' told me that was the way to do it, and every magazine said the same thing too!

Wasted 15 years... and yet I'm not bitter

All in my opinion of course

 

[JustOne]

I don't understand all of this!

May I just walk up and hit the ball?

We all have different swings - some better than others but I would say that we're not good enough to 're-model' our swings a la Faldo, Harrington, etc. We've got to work with what we've got!

Unlucky Smiffy.........

I totally disagree, if you had a fraction more weight on your left side and pressed your hands a fraction ahead of the ball at impact you wouldn't hit the ball so high... and could get much better distance, control and be less likely to fat the ball

Look on Youtube for 'impact position golf' and just (for example) pick the first vid you find... or any of them probably.

The problem is that the correct impact position is damn hard to get with the conventional swing.. well it is for mere mortals like you and I,... so I changed.

 

[AuburnWarrior]

I don't understand all of this!

May I just walk up and hit the ball?

We all have different swings - some better than others but I would say that we're not good enough to 're-model' our swings a la Faldo, Harrington, etc. We've got to work with what we've got!

Unlucky Smiffy.........

I totally disagree, if you had a fraction more weight on your left side and pressed your hands a fraction ahead of the ball at impact you wouldn't hit the ball so high... and could get much better distance, control and be less likely to fat the ball

Look on Youtube for 'impact position golf' and just (for example) pick the first vid you find... or any of them probably.

The problem is that the correct impact position is damn hard to get with the conventional swing.. well it is for mere mortals like you and I,... so I changed.

Curse you James, curse you!

And for the record, I don't fat the ball.........much.

 

[percy_layer]

What i would like to know though, now that S&T has been around for a while and has a small presence on tour, why do so few golf coaches teach it?

I can only speculate on that... it got off to a bad start because no-one understood it and the guys who 'invented' it were total idiots, keeping themselves to themselves and leaving everyone to their own devices. It subsequently got driven down into the ground by the nay sayers and has struggled to recover ever since. Subsequently the PGA hasn't yet acknowledged it with any credit whatsoever even though it's had a huge impact on golf already, Tiger Woods is being taught by a student of S&T, no big deal... by WHY did Sean Foley bother being a student of S&T in the first place if it was rubbish? Lot's of players are more centered over the ball now than have ever been, more amateurs are going to adopt that as it becomes more common place, and more talked about. More players have a 'one plane swing' nowadays than ever before...these things aren't accidents, it's geometry bought about by technology. For the first time in golfing history we are actually able to see what is going on before, during and after a swing... and the masses have access to that information.

I spend 15+ years loading up my right hand side and trying to hit a draw with a square clubface because a 'pro' told me that was the way to do it, and every magazine said the same thing too!

Wasted 15 years... and yet I'm not bitter

All in my opinion of course

I think the pro should have tried a different approach if you weren't hitting a draw after 15 years of lessons, i hope it wasn't the same guy in the second video you found on youtube.........

I do see your point

My own belief is that S&T is too extreme to last, i could be proved wrong, but a very moderate interpretation of it could be successful.

Will be interesting to see how it develops over time.

 

[JustOne]

Love you James, love you!

Fixed!

Watch Pieman's swing, at impact his hands are about half an hour ahead of the ball, he's a great ball striker when his game is 'on'.

He'll show you how it's done on Saturday if you ask nicely.. and take a pie!

 

[JustOne]

That video made me cringe.........

My feeling exactly!

It showed his weight on his back foot when striking through the ball and also the spine tilting back from the ball position into the followthrough............

As currently taught by your local PGA pro for only £50/hr

 

[percy_layer]

That video made me cringe.........

My feeling exactly!

It showed his weight on his back foot when striking through the ball and also the spine tilting back from the ball position into the followthrough............

As currently your local PGA Pro is correcting for only £25/hr

Fixed it for you, guess you made a typo.........

 

[HawkeyeMS]

@ Hawkeye.....

I'd probably have kept my old swing if I had 100hrs per week to play/practice. Thing is most of us don't have that chance but still want to play better than our current level.
It's an option and that's all there is to it.

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I have no priblem with S&T, I don't use it because I wasn't taught it but I've got no doubt it works for some in the same way the conventional swing works for some.

Most golfers use neither technique, some quite effectively.

I say if you find a swing that works for you, go with it.

I really know very little about S&T, maybe it would be good for me? However, having spent this year getting to a stage where I actually feel good about my conventional based swing I'm not inclined to spend another year learning something new.

S&T, conventional, something in between, it doesn't really matter. What matters is we all enjoy the game.

There is no right swing, there is no better swing. Everyone is different physically, we all just need to find a way to get that little ball in the little hole in as few a shots as possible.