ANother rules q

[sev112]

I thought i'd asked this but couldnt find evidence that i have - must be getting old

Club match at the weekend, singles matchplay , par 4 dogleg left, oppo cuts corner 120 ish to go, i am 170 out.

I hit through the back of the green and so hit a provisional into the front bunker - as it turned out it was sitting up nicely.

Oppo hit his to edge of green ,a nd becasue he was 30 odd yards ahead of me, he said he would go to the back of teh green and let me know whether the ball was still in play or off the course. (It had gone over the tee box close to OOB). he gets there and shouts back "it's ok it's still in play".

So i pick up the provisional from the bunker and walk around the green and around the tee to "my" ball.
Except it's not my ball, and my (YELLOW!) ball is clearly off the course.

I've picked up my provisional.

Whilst i know at that point i could walk back 200 yards and play another one to the green, playing 4, when he is on the green in 2, should the hole have been mine ?

I think not, as it was still my decision to pick up the provisional whatever he said, but at least one of my colleagues thinks he gave me duff information (what with the fact that i had been playing a yellow ball all teh way round) and therefore he lost the hole for that - i'm not sure.

(nice chap though, was clear to me that he didnt do it deliberately)

Thoughts

 

[DaveM]

I far as I know (may be wrong). But its your fault, its up to you to identify your own ball. Just as an aside? Did you state the provisional ball was a provisional before you hit it? If you did not then that was the ball in play.

 

[rosecott]

Your responsibility - no different to someone telling you it's your ball in the rough, you playing it and finding out it's not your ball.

 

[duncan mackie]

......

I've picked up my provisional.

Whilst i know at that point i could walk back 200 yards and play another one to the green, playing 4, when he is on the green in 2, should the hole have been mine ?........


Thoughts

1. you have already played 4, and would have been playing 5 from the bunker if you hadn't picked it up - so not a lot of loss here.
2. you can't go back and play another for 4, it would be 7
3. you can replace the ball in the bunker playing 6 (one penalty shot under 18-2)

 

[Region3]

1. you have already played 4, and would have been playing 5 from the bunker if you hadn't picked it up - so not a lot of loss here.
2. you can't go back and play another for 4, it would be 7
3. you can replace the ball in the bunker playing 6 (one penalty shot under 18-2)

So it's a 1 shot penalty for moving the ball in play, and replace it?
Now playing 6 after placing (or dropping?) it as close to the previous spot as possible?

 

[duncan mackie]

So it's a 1 shot penalty for moving the ball in play, and replace it?

yes, as my BB partner found out when he ran my ball over with his trolley on Wed, and I was explaining why I picked up.....

Now playing 6 after placing (or dropping?) it as close to the previous spot as possible?

if it's as close as possible it's a drop - if it's known and can be duplicated it's a place - see rule 20 for the long version!

 

[Colin L]

sev112,

See Decision 27-2b/8,. It covers your situation where a player lifts his provisional ball in the belief his original is in bounds and will explain why it is a 1 stroke penalty and replace. (The reasons why the player believes his original ball is ok don't seem to me to matter.)

 

[sev112]

Thanks all

I did at the time consider it was my fault, and that the Provisional was in play as soon as the ball had priginally gone out (even though we didnt know it at the time), and therefore my decision to pick up the ball was me out of the hole, even though he said "Pick it up".

 

[Colin L]

Thanks all

I did at the time consider it was my fault, and that the Provisional was in play as soon as the ball had priginally gone out (even though we didnt know it at the time), and therefore my decision to pick up the ball was me out of the hole, even though he said "Pick it up".

Just in case you weren't aware of it, a useful rule of thumb is that a breach of the rules that costs a one stroke penalty in stroke play is also a one-stroke penalty in match play. A two-stroke penalty in stroke play is loss of hole in match play.

 

[sev112]

Just in case you weren't aware of it, a useful rule of thumb is that a breach of the rules that costs a one stroke penalty in stroke play is also a one-stroke penalty in match play. A two-stroke penalty in stroke play is loss of hole in match play.

Ooh that's interesting

So if you putt in macthplay and you hit eth flag laying down, what's the penalty / outcome ?
(I thought) GM Rules question this month says 2 shot penalty

 

[rosecott]

Ooh that's interesting

So if you putt in macthplay and you hit eth flag laying down, what's the penalty / outcome ?
(I thought) GM Rules question this month says 2 shot penalty

Loss of hole in matchplay.

 

[sev112]

Loss of hole in matchplay.

Yep that's what i thought - but the GM Rules question doesnt qualify if stroke play or match play, which is what got me confused

 

[Ethan]

I am not sure that 27/2b-8 covers this. I couldn't find a decision which covers this exact situation, so it may be worth sending a query to the R&A.

But it seems obvious that the actions of the other player can't be considered to be unimportant. There could even be an argument made that the other player must have known the ball he observed was not your ball (since you were playing a yellow one), and was therefore lying to you to make you commit a penalty error. If that was considered by the Committee to be the case, the other player could be DQ'd.

That aside, I think the only fair thing to do is to replace the provo as near to the point where it lay as possible and play on.

 

[Colin L]

Leave aside for the moment how this player has come to the wrong understanding that his original ball is in play. Because his original ball is out of bounds, his provisional is now the ball in play (R27-2b). He is not permitted by the Rules to lift the ball when he does and is therefore subject to a one stroke penalty and must replace the ball (R18-2). The player is responsible for playing the proper ball (R6-2).

Which is all very well except we feel that his opponent has a responsibility here, don't we? Provided he made a genuine mistake, I haven't yet found an applicable Rule to cover the situation. He has not given "wrong information" in the sense of R9-2b which is only about information on the number of strokes taken. So, if there is no applicable Rule how about looking to Rule 1-4 and determine that in equity, the first player should be allowed to replace his ball without penalty? Decision 2-4/3 might lend some support to that.

But wouldn't we hope that in a situation like this we wouldn't have to resort to the rule book because
the player who innocently misled his opponent would at the least suggest a half, or even better concede the hole?

If he misled him deliberately that's a very different matter, of course.

 

[backwoodsman]

I'm with the earlier replies on this. Ball has to be replaced in bunker & play it playing 6. Although its a mistake on the part of the oppo' - and seemingly an blatant one - the sole responsibility for identifying the ball is the player himself.

 

[Colin L]

I am with you on that. I haven't convinced myself to change my earlier view to an equity ruling allowing a free replacement, but thought it was worth exploring to see what others thought.

 

[duncan mackie]

But wouldn't we hope that in a situation like this we wouldn't have to resort to the rule book because
the player who innocently misled his opponent would at the least suggest a half, or even better concede the hole?

.

I would like to think that if there was any realistic competition left in the hole I would offer a half in such a situation - however, in this case I wouldn't because the hole had effectively been lost prior to the ball being picked up on the basis of what was posted.

 

[Colin L]

A good point, Duncan. A half was not out of the question though, if unlikely: one player holes his bunker shot for a 5 and the other 3 putts from the edge of the green.