Another provisional question

[Beedee]

Playing on Sunday when this happened in my group.

Format was individual stableford. Society game for a couple of quid and bragging rights - not a proper comp. Par 3 hole.

Player misses green by a mile right and goes into some bushes.
Immediately announces intention to play a provisional.
Hits provisional even worse but left this time. Clearly OOB.
Player swears a lot and walks to the first ball.
When we get there we realise the bushes are a red staked penalty area (none of the players in the 4 ball knew it was a penalty area when we were at the tee).
Player finds the ball in the bush in the penalty area.

Now we have some debate about whether he was allowed to play a provisional as the ball was in a penalty area; so was the 2nd ball played actually the ball in play or a provisional?

Our decision was, that since none of us knew the bushes were a penalty area, the provisional was indeed a provisional, so the player could continue with the original ball and drop out of the penalty area for a shot penalty and carry on. Did we do right?

 

[robinthehood]

I'd say yes.

 

[louise_a]

If you didn't know it was a penalty area how could you know to not take a provisional, I would say you were correct

 

[rulefan]

Yes.

 

[Beedee]

Cool. Thanks

 

[chrisd]

My understanding is that you play a provisional if you dont know, or are not sure, where your ball has gone and whether you'll find it. If you know or are virtually certain (95% sure) that your ball is in a penalty area then you dont play a provisional because the rules give an option without the need to play a provisional.

As he had 0% certainty that the ball was in the penalty area he was right to play a provisional and right to abandon it once his 1st ball was found within the 3 minutes allowed

 

[backwoodsman]

My understanding is that you play a provisional if you dont know, or are not sure, where your ball has gone and whether you'll find it. If you know or are virtually certain (95% sure) that your ball is in a penalty area then you dont play a provisional because the rules give an option without the need to play a provisional.

As he had 0% certainty that the ball was in the penalty area he was right to play a provisional and right to abandon it once his 1st ball was found within the 3 minutes allowed

^^^^^ is the correct understanding. Rule 18.3a gives the detail.

If the player is aware that the only place the ball might be lost is in a penalty area, then no provisional should be played. Therefore, to know the only place the ball might be is in a penalty area, you have to know the penalty area is there in the first place.

 

[bobmac]

If the player is aware that the only place the ball might be lost is in a penalty area, then no provisional should be played.

I hope that's not how it's worded in the rule book

 

[Swango1980]

As stated above, playing on with the original was correct. The following is extracted from the exact wording of the ruling:

"If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally..."

"For a ball to be lost, this applies: When a ball might be lost in a penalty area but also might be lost somewhere else on the course,"

"But if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed..."

So, as backwoodsman said, the player would need to know the penalty area was there for that last statement to be true. He didn't, and therefore felt that his ball could be lost outside a penalty area and was allowed to play a provisional.

 

[*TQ*]

Had a related situation last night; pulled a tee shot over some trees towards an area with a pond, didn't see it land. I wasn't 100% so I said to my fellow compeitor "If I can't find that the only place it can be is in the water isn't it?", he agreed and as such I didn't play a provisional, that's the right thing to do isn't it?

 

[Swango1980]

Had a related situation last night; pulled a tee shot over some trees towards an area with a pond, didn't see it land. I wasn't 100% so I said to my fellow competitor "If I can't find that the only place it can be is in the water isn't it?", he agreed and as such I didn't play a provisional, that's the right thing to do isn't it?

You say that you were not 100%. How certain were you that the ball would be in the penalty area if not found? The R&A says you need to be virtually certain (95% chance or greater). If your ball could have caught trees on the way to the pond, or got snagged up in rough around it, then it is very unlikely that you could assume that it was in the pond if not found. If you ended up finding your ball, no problem. If you didn't, I doubt you would have been in a position where you could take a penalty drop by the pond, given you couldn't be certain it was there. You'd need to go back and play 3 off the tee.

In terms of the provisional, if it is true that you couldn't be virtually certain you were in the pond, it would have been fine to play a provisional, and then play on with the original if found. Unless, of course, you were certain that the ball definitely cleared the trees, and beyond the trees there was completely open space, no rough and just the pond. In that scenario, you could be virtually certain that the ball would not be lost in any place other than the penalty area, in which case you couldn't play a provisional.

 

[rulefan]

What a lot of palaver over an issue the questioner had correctly dealt with himself and had received 3 confirmations within a couple of hours. Especially as no one has said he was wrong.

 

[Kellfire]

A handful of posts does not a palaver make.

 

[rulefan]

Well IMO ii is unnecessary fuss and bother about the way something was done.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Well IMO ii is unnecessary fuss and bother about the way something was done.

Look, all that happened was that several chaps made contributions of opinions on a matter asked for by the OP. It then expanded slightly into potential situations a little different from that.
Why is that a fuss and bother ? It's a forum about rules and so persons contributed. There shouldn't be a problem with that.

 

[clubchamp98]

Look, all that happened was that several chaps made contributions of opinions on a matter asked for by the OP. It then expanded slightly into potential situations a little different from that.
Why is that a fuss and bother ? It's a forum about rules and so persons contributed. There shouldn't be a problem with that.

Yes I agree.
This is how you learn stuff.

 

[bobmac]

Well IMO ii is unnecessary fuss and bother about the way something was done.

I'd like to know why you thought you needed to provide links to the meaning of the words unnecessary, fuss and bother?

 

[rulefan]

I'd like to know why you thought you needed to provide links to the meaning of the words unnecessary, fuss and bother?

I see no links

 

[bobmac]

The words are coloured blue showing they are clickable, at least on my computer

 

[Kellfire]

Same here.