And, we’re off.......2018/2019

[pbrown7582]

no mention of the disgraceful booing of the Champions league best defender ........

 

[Dan2501]

They're playing a hell of a lot better than England teams of the last 10 years. I'm not sure how switching back to a formation which has historically not worked is going to help.

Switching to your formation doesn't help the midfield from being overrun or get more numbers in the middle. Even though we're playing 3 ATB we still have 3 central midfield players - against Spain we had Henderson, Lingard and Alli - all your formation does is whack another attacker up top, I don't see how that's going to improve things given our issues have been defensively particularly in the 2nd half of games, we've not struggled scoring goals. The main issue has been mentality once we've got a lead, which we tend to have often. Instead of continuing to dominate and press forward - especially after half-time - they sit back and just invite pressure. We did it against Colombia and scraped past them and we did it again against Croatia. Changing to a 4-3-3 isn't going to help that, if anything it'll make it worse as we'll concede more as there's less defensive cover. It's something Southgate needs to work on but is definitely more of a mindset issue rather than a tactical one.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

They're playing a hell of a lot better than England teams of the last 10 years. I'm not sure how switching back to a formation which has historically not worked is going to help.

Switching to your formation doesn't help the midfield from being overrun or get more numbers in the middle. Even though we're playing 3 ATB we still have 3 central midfield players - against Spain we had Henderson, Lingard and Alli - all your formation does is whack another attacker up top, I don't see how that's going to improve things given our issues have been defensively particularly in the 2nd half of games, we've not struggled scoring goals. The main issue has been mentality once we've got a lead, which we tend to have often. Instead of continuing to dominate and press forward - especially after half-time - they sit back and just invite pressure. We did it against Colombia and scraped past them and we did it again against Croatia. Changing to a 4-3-3 isn't going to help that, if anything it'll make it worse as we'll concede more as there's less defensive cover. It's something Southgate needs to work on but is definitely more of a mindset issue rather than a tactical one.

The main issue is a lack of creativity and ability to beat the better teams - Southgate hasn’t managed to beat one decent team yet , because he sets the team up at the moment to not lose. You can’t dismiss a formation based on previous managers because you had Hodgson who was imo way out of his depth. The World Cup masked England’s deficiencies as a team and unless that changes then the last World Cup will be as good as it’s going to get.

There are plenty of teams that play 4 at the back and use a sitting mid as cover for when the full backs go forward - Just look at the top teams both Club and Country do it because they trust the CB and the DM to sit in.

I reckon you can look at England’s future fixtures and guess what the results will be

 

[Orikoru]

They're playing a hell of a lot better than England teams of the last 10 years. I'm not sure how switching back to a formation which has historically not worked is going to help.

Switching to your formation doesn't help the midfield from being overrun or get more numbers in the middle. Even though we're playing 3 ATB we still have 3 central midfield players - against Spain we had Henderson, Lingard and Alli - all your formation does is whack another attacker up top, I don't see how that's going to improve things given our issues have been defensively particularly in the 2nd half of games, we've not struggled scoring goals. The main issue has been mentality once we've got a lead, which we tend to have often. Instead of continuing to dominate and press forward - especially after half-time - they sit back and just invite pressure. We did it against Colombia and scraped past them and we did it again against Croatia. Changing to a 4-3-3 isn't going to help that, if anything it'll make it worse as we'll concede more as there's less defensive cover. It's something Southgate needs to work on but is definitely more of a mindset issue rather than a tactical one.

Agree. The reason we're playing that system is actually to answer the problems we have, caused by lack of good players, really. We've got a back three because we don't have any quality centre backs like the years of peak Terry and Rio, so they need another body there. We play a counter attack style because the 'creative player' that everyone always says we need doesn't actually exist at the moment.

 

[Orikoru]

The main issue is a lack of creativity and ability to beat the better teams - Southgate hasn’t managed to beat one decent team yet , because he sets the team up at the moment to not lose. You can’t dismiss a formation based on previous managers because you had Hodgson who was imo way out of his depth. The World Cup masked England’s deficiencies as a team and unless that changes then the last World Cup will be as good as it’s going to get.

There are plenty of teams that play 4 at the back and use a sitting mid as cover for when the full backs go forward - Just look at the top teams both Club and Country do it because they trust the CB and the DM to sit in.

I reckon you can look at England’s future fixtures and guess what the results will be

Well you've identified the problem there. We're not a top team are we? In international terms we're like a Bournemouth, just trying to compete with whatever means we have. People don't moan at Bournemouth that they aren't creative enough to compete with Liverpool, Utd, etc.

 

[Dan2501]

Agree. The reason we're playing that system is actually to answer the problems we have, caused by lack of good players, really. We've got a back three because we don't have any quality centre backs like the years of peak Terry and Rio, so they need another body there. We play a counter attack style because the 'creative player' that everyone always says we need doesn't actually exist at the moment.

Yep. None of Maguire, Stones, Gomez or insert other average CB here are good enough to play as a two and there's no DM good enough to provide the necessary cover to sit in front of them. None of Ross Barkley, Jesse Lingard or Dele Alli are good enough to play the Pogba/KDB/Modric role. This formation plugs enough gaps to make us competitive with the big teams and then if we stuck to what made us successful early in games - such as early on in the Colombia and Croatia games we'd have beaten them. Problem is this team aren't used to winning or leading games so when they get ahead they sit-back and try and protect and then aren't good enough defensively to keep teams out for an entire half. If we go 4-3-3 we're competing man-for-man with far better teams than us and will likely lose worse.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The main issue is a lack of creativity and ability to beat the better teams - Southgate hasn’t managed to beat one decent team yet , because he sets the team up at the moment to not lose. You can’t dismiss a formation based on previous managers because you had Hodgson who was imo way out of his depth. The World Cup masked England’s deficiencies as a team and unless that changes then the last World Cup will be as good as it’s going to get.

There are plenty of teams that play 4 at the back and use a sitting mid as cover for when the full backs go forward - Just look at the top teams both Club and Country do it because they trust the CB and the DM to sit in.

I reckon you can look at England’s future fixtures and guess what the results will be

Come on LP it’s 806 days since he left the England job! In the words of Frozen “let it go, let it go”

 

[Deleted member 1740]

no mention of the disgraceful booing of the Champions league best defender ........

Lovren wasn't playing😁

 

[fundy]

Sounds like Bolton heading for Administration

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2018/september/a-note-from-the-chairman4/

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yep. None of Maguire, Stones, Gomez or insert other average CB here are good enough to play as a two and there's no DM good enough to provide the necessary cover to sit in front of them. None of Ross Barkley, Jesse Lingard or Dele Alli are good enough to play the Pogba/KDB/Modric role. This formation plugs enough gaps to make us competitive with the big teams and then if we stuck to what made us successful early in games - such as early on in the Colombia and Croatia games we'd have beaten them. Problem is this team aren't used to winning or leading games so when they get ahead they sit-back and try and protect and then aren't good enough defensively to keep teams out for an entire half. If we go 4-3-3 we're competing man-for-man with far better teams than us and will likely lose worse.

Average CB ? Really - so these CB’s are deemed good enough by their club manager to play in a two against a lot of times superior opposition and are trusted to play in a two by managers better than Southgate yet not good enough to play in a two for England ?!? Sorry but that’s nonsense.

England were “successful” better lesser teams - they are very defensive against most teams and had to rely a lot on set pieces. England were never going to beat Croatia whilst they dominate the midfield - it was 2 or even 1 against their three who just waited for the gaps to appear, Henderson spent most of the match chasing the three of them because he had no support - and that’s the same against any top team. Playing the three/5 at the back attempts to stop the gaps but allows the midfield to be overrun especially against the top teams and if you are unable to control the ball or even get any sort of meaningful possession you are then left to set pieces.

Bournemouth was a team someone used to compare - the same Bournemouth that battles relegation - it’s that really the level England aspire to be ?

 

[Dan2501]

You think Stones, Maguire and Gomez are right now better than average?

You keep going on about the midfield being over-run and yet suggest a midfield of Henderson, Alli and Barkley to solve our problems. How is that going to be any different to the Henderson, Alli, Lingard midfield 3 Southgate is using? As for keeping the ball - we had 57% possession against Belgium - lost 3-0. It was even against Croatia - 54/46 and we lost. This England team has issues - keeping the ball and having possession is not one of them.

 

[Papas1982]

No one interested in the weekend's football?

England fail to beat a top 20 team for the 13th time under Southgate.

Wales show why they're the best home nation again.

Northern Ireland absolutely dominate Bosnia and lose 2-1. Standard.

Mo Salah has an eventful game - scoring two, setting up two and missing two penalties.

1, standard.
2

Average CB ? Really - so these CB’s are deemed good enough by their club manager to play in a two against a lot of times superior opposition and are trusted to play in a two by managers better than Southgate yet not good enough to play in a two for England ?!? Sorry but that’s nonsense.

England were “successful” better lesser teams - they are very defensive against most teams and had to rely a lot on set pieces. England were never going to beat Croatia whilst they dominate the midfield - it was 2 or even 1 against their three who just waited for the gaps to appear, Henderson spent most of the match chasing the three of them because he had no support - and that’s the same against any top team. Playing the three/5 at the back attempts to stop the gaps but allows the midfield to be overrun especially against the top teams and if you are unable to control the ball or even get any sort of meaningful possession you are then left to set pieces.

Bournemouth was a team someone used to compare - the same Bournemouth that battles relegation - it’s that really the level England aspire to be ?

I agree with most of that. Except the cb’s. They may well play as a two for their clubs. But Liverpool and City are significantly better than most cubs so the cbs aren’t under the same pressure that England are. Maguire plays for a mid table team so can’t gauge his skill too much, although imo if he’d gone for 70m it would have been akin to Diouf! A World Cup feel for an inferior player.

 

[Orikoru]

Average CB ? Really - so these CB’s are deemed good enough by their club manager to play in a two against a lot of times superior opposition and are trusted to play in a two by managers better than Southgate yet not good enough to play in a two for England ?!? Sorry but that’s nonsense.

England were “successful” better lesser teams - they are very defensive against most teams and had to rely a lot on set pieces. England were never going to beat Croatia whilst they dominate the midfield - it was 2 or even 1 against their three who just waited for the gaps to appear, Henderson spent most of the match chasing the three of them because he had no support - and that’s the same against any top team. Playing the three/5 at the back attempts to stop the gaps but allows the midfield to be overrun especially against the top teams and if you are unable to control the ball or even get any sort of meaningful possession you are then left to set pieces.

Bournemouth was a team someone used to compare - the same Bournemouth that battles relegation - it’s that really the level England aspire to be ?

It's the level we are. How can we aspire to be anything? It's international football, you are bound by your selection pool. Not like club football where you can invest in great new players to change things.

Do you really think we can go 4-3-3 and play a team like Spain off the park? If so you're even more deluded than I thought. Spain have one of the top 5 centre backs in the world in Sergio Ramos, and a world class defensive midfielder in Busquets to sit in front - so they can play 4-3-3 and compete with anyone. Can we do the same with Stones and Dier/Henderson? Of course bloody not. It's chalk and cheese. Southgate knows this, that's why he began trying to think outside the box and come up with a system that masks our deficiencies as much as possible.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It's the level we are. How can we aspire to be anything? It's international football, you are bound by your selection pool. Not like club football where you can invest in great new players to change things.

Do you really think we can go 4-3-3 and play a team like Spain off the park? If so you're even more deluded than I thought. Spain have one of the top 5 centre backs in the world in Sergio Ramos, and a world class defensive midfielder in Busquets to sit in front - so they can play 4-3-3 and compete with anyone. Can we do the same with Stones and Dier/Henderson? Of course bloody not. It's chalk and cheese. Southgate knows this, that's why he began trying to think outside the box and come up with a system that masks our deficiencies as much as possible.

So that’s it ? Just stick to doing the same old thing and getting beaten by the better teams because they are just looking to “plug gaps” ? Who said anything about playing Spain “off the park” ? At least try and compete against them and develop and more forward - just “plugging” gaps is the mentality of a team that just wants to survive. England below the top level are winning everything in sight playing attractive football and certainly not 5 at the back trying to “mask” deficiencies- Southgate needs to move forward from the defensive mode he is getting in - he got lucky in the World Cup with their path but that won’t happen again and England need to be able compete better against the better nations - if they keep on losing then the summer will be a flash in the pan. If England want to stay in that second level then they continue in the same vein beating teams they should but if they want to actually build on what happened in the summer then the team and the manager need to develop.

 

[Dan2501]

 

[Kellfire]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11495141/uefa-to-launch-third-european-competition-from-2021


Just what we need, more dilution of European competition...

 

[Liverbirdie]

Well UEFA are getting the defribilator out and trying to resurrect the 3rd best UEFA competition that they used to have:-

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/uefa-prepare-big-rule-change-15136349

I actually agree with it, depending on how the qualification process works out. I'm sure the likes of Southampton, Burnely and others (including us in our more lean years) would still like a few trips abroad.

 

[Orikoru]

So that’s it ? Just stick to doing the same old thing and getting beaten by the better teams because they are just looking to “plug gaps” ? Who said anything about playing Spain “off the park” ? At least try and compete against them and develop and more forward - just “plugging” gaps is the mentality of a team that just wants to survive. England below the top level are winning everything in sight playing attractive football and certainly not 5 at the back trying to “mask” deficiencies- Southgate needs to move forward from the defensive mode he is getting in - he got lucky in the World Cup with their path but that won’t happen again and England need to be able compete better against the better nations - if they keep on losing then the summer will be a flash in the pan. If England want to stay in that second level then they continue in the same vein beating teams they should but if they want to actually build on what happened in the summer then the team and the manager need to develop.

I can't really debate this if you're going to contradict yourself. Earlier you moaned at him for trying a different system, now you're saying he's doing the 'same old thing'. Make your mind up.

This system IS how he's trying to compete. Rather than go like-for-like and try and beat teams at their own game with worse players - how is that ever going to work? - he comes up with a new system which gives them something different to think about. I think he's looked at who he has available and tried to use our strengths. We don't have any good passers so a passing game is a waste of time. We do have great delivery from out wide in Trippier, we have a world class striker in Kane, and other players who like getting in the box, so he's trying to get the best out of those tools. Seems sensible to me.

 

[Orikoru]

Well UEFA are getting the defribilator out and trying to resurrect the 3rd best UEFA competition that they used to have:-

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/uefa-prepare-big-rule-change-15136349

I actually agree with it, depending on how the qualification process works out. I'm sure the likes of Southampton, Burnely and others (including us in our more lean years) would still like a few trips abroad.

Burnley didn't really like their trip abroad this season though. After all the build up of 'little Burnley' getting into Europe, they played a half strength team and got knocked out at the first hurdle.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I can't really debate this if you're going to contradict yourself. Earlier you moaned at him for trying a different system, now you're saying he's doing the 'same old thing'. Make your mind up.

This system IS how he's trying to compete. Rather than go like-for-like and try and beat teams at their own game with worse players - how is that ever going to work? - he comes up with a new system which gives them something different to think about. I think he's looked at who he has available and tried to use our strengths. We don't have any good passers so a passing game is a waste of time. We do have great delivery from out wide in Trippier, we have a world class striker in Kane, and other players who like getting in the box, so he's trying to get the best out of those tools. Seems sensible to me.

Ok I’ll try it a different way and use facts

England in the World Cup came up against their first strong opposition - Belguim - lost , then they played Croatia same system same tactics - lost then they played Belgium again same tactic same system - lost , so three times against three strong oppostions and they lost each time. So they come up against Spain another strong opposition so is the manager going to change his system and tactics when it’s clearly not working against the better teams - nope same tactics and same system and guess what - lost.

So looking at the facts England played the same system and tactics in matches against strong opposition and lost every time - so why wouldn’t a manager look to make a change when those tactics and system quite clearly struggles against the better nations. Why not find a way to compete better in the middle , why not find a way to support Kane better as opposed to leaving him isolated with zero supply line bar someone lumping balls and waiting for set pieces.

So with it clear that England can’t beat the better nations using the current system what will be the result if they continue to use the system against those nations ? They will continue to lose. There was a superb debate on the Monday night club on 5live last night and they all said the same thing - England need support for Kane , they need to be braver in the middle and get better numbers in the middle and if they want to progress they need to step away from a system that doesn’t work against the better nations