An old swedes efforts to make a swing

[Laka]

I guess this swing can improve, but what can an older stiff man do, to make a consistent swing? Tips is welcome

http://youtu.be/ZBMA9hpQxZs

http://youtu.be/CLuf4_SSg0c

 

[bobmac]

It's a fine effort, lots of good positions.
To be picky, I'd like to see you feet a bit further apart at address and do you fade the ball at all?

 

[Laka]

It's a fine effort, lots of good positions.
To be picky, I'd like to see you feet a bit further apart at address and do you fade the ball at all?

well to be honest,, sometimes its straight, some times slice/fade and sometimes pull/draw...inconsistent swing.. also often hit the ball thin, and like slice the blade on impact,, i guess thats because of stiffness and not releasing because of that

i have choosen when adressing, not to be so wide, the reason is : i can rotate better with my stiff hips!!

 

[bobmac]

The slice/fade is caused by an out to in swing path with an open clubface.
The pull/hook is caused by an out to in swing path with a square/closed clubface.

Fix the swing path and you will become more consistent.
The reason you are out to in is your left elbow pulls the club hard left through impact.
Try and keep your left elbow out in front of you as long as you can and feel the club go past your hands. This should make the club finish in a much higher position.
Start off slowly then gradually increase the speed.
Hope this helps

 

[the_coach]

Some good movement & the swings going in the right direction, good going for sure.

Would agree with 'bobmac' that the stance is a little ways too narrow, which is giving you a little balance problem through the motion you can see the effect of the balance & a little ways too narrow stance by the way the feet twist through impact.

Also the little ways narrow stance isn't allowing you to keep your weight in the turn back onto the inside of the right foot, so the weight gets a little ways too much over on the outside of the foot which is also making that right leg straighten a little ways too much on the way to the top.
The hips can oft times 'feel' & be restricted in their movement. (though I hear what you say about stiff hips) Though in this motion you have a hip turn despite the straightening right leg.

One big thing that would help with the left arm motion mentioned, is if you take a real close look at your left hand position, you'll see it's in a pretty 'weak' position - left hand turned to much counter clockwise, to the right. So as you look down at address you're only going to be seeing about a half to one knuckle, instead of 2 & a 1/2. This also puts your shoulders a little ways open in the address position if you check the dtl closely you can see the little ways open shoulder line.

These two things (weak left hand/shoulder line) are combining to pull the arms left in direction through impact then as 'bobmac' has indicated it also then depends where the clubface is looking through strike as to where it goes either left or right & by how much.

On the dtl if you look you'll also see the right leg straighten & weight rollout on to outside of right foot, which if you then look at the start down from the top you'll see you're automatically dipping a tad as you subconsciously seek to return to be nearer address vertical height.
This along with the left arm direction 'bobmac' originally mentioned has you pulling arms left & upwards a little as your weight is a little late & still on right side through impact. So depends on your timing of this as to whether the club head is pulling 'upwards' which is with the leftwards swing direction through impact why you sometimes hit the ball a tad thin.

Looking at the hip movement range you show here in the swing motion, getting the stance in a little ways wider shouldn't really present you any real difficulties.
But you'd reap the benefit of being having a more solid base so be able to turn over this in a good ways better balance. Also would help with keeping the weight on the inside of the right foot & the right leg not straightening a little too much. So the right hip doesn't get blocked by the right leg, so hips hopefully should still feel okay.
Then it's just a matter of strengthening the left hand some & keeping an eye on the shoulder alignment.

So although may seem a lot it isn't overmuch & if you can mange it should help you some with strike, direction & consistency. Good luck.

 

[Laka]

Thank you bobmac and thecoach, for your advices , i will start to test with a "stronger" grip and wider stance.:clap: :thup:

 

[bobmac]

Thank you bobmac and thecoach, for your advices , i will start to test with a "stronger" grip and wider stance.:clap: :thup:

If you strengthen the grip and leave the swing path, you will just hit it left all day.
I would suggest you fix the path first, this would help.

[video=youtube;KsrovFJ3o9I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsrovFJ3o9I[/video]

Try not to hit the headcovers

 

[the_coach]

You could try to fix the path first, give it a go, but with a left hand grip position that weak, you could find it to be something that's more than a little ways difficult to achieve alone. Could end up with some great big push fades/slices going on while still experiencing the thins some too.

The inconsistent direction (left, right & thin) is more to do with the differing face angles contact through impact, face angle direction governed more by the left hand being unable to support a stable face angle through impact given it's current position on the handle.

If you can change path with hands & shoulders as they are, & strike & direction going well, then all good.
But if you find it a ways difficult to achieve this.

My take would be, if you give yourself a more stable base with that little wider stance keep the weight on the inside of the right foot don't let it escape to the outside so there's less likelihood of it straightening a little ways too much, & also make sure you shoulders aren't a little ways open at set-up. (as that will encourage swinging left through impact)
& you turn the left hand clockwise some, to see a 'couple of knuckles' to give your self a little more 'strength' in that hands hold on the handle to be better able to support a more stable face angle through impact, & concentrate on swinging through the inside back quarter of the ball, it should put you in good shape.

'Lycka till' hope you get it going good.

 

[bobmac]

You could try to fix the path first, give it a go, but with a left hand grip position that weak you could find it to be something that's more than a little ways difficult to achieve alone

I dont agree. In this case I would prefer to fix the path as I dont believe the left hand is weak. If it was, especially from that camera angle, you would expect to see part of the inside of the left wrist. As you can see below, you cant see any of the inside of the wrist

Could end up with some great big push fades/slices going on while still experiencing the thins some too.

When a golfer swings out to in, he subconsciously holds the face open to stop it starting left. No one taught him to do that it just happens naturally. I believe when the golfer learns to swing on a more neutral path, the subconscious starts to square the face up, especially if the grip is neutral.

If you look at the 5 laws, one of them is the swing path.
In my opinion, that has to be fixed first.

 

[the_coach]

"You could try to fix the path first,give it a go. But if you find it a ways difficult to achieve this"

If on trying a path change along with changing nothing but the width of stance this then means good contact & ball to target, then all good. As I first said.

Written previously were just a few things to consider if success in strike & the ball's starting & finishing direction to be at target was proving a ways difficult to achieve on a consistent basis through trying to effect change of swing path in isolation, apart from widening stance. There are some inherent difficulties that will keep surfacing with a weak left hand grip. A player has to have developed a very strong coordinated swing motion to be able to put a good strike through the ball & play consistently well with a left hand grip bordering on one knuckle.

A players grip on the handles primary influence at impact is the direction of the balls starting direction, as grip influences face angle, face angle influences direction - another 1 of the 5.
(There isn't a neutral 2-ish to 2 & 1/2 knuckles on the left hand, the V between thumb & forefinger is more pointing towards the left ear, that would put it in the weak position spectrum to me)

Looking at the opposite end of the spectrum for a moment, have found if folks have an overstrong hold on the handle.

Because the ball has gone left, & some, & very often, then handicap players with strong grips to mitigate their 'lefts' more develop a ways to not fully rotate through the shot as well as vigorously holding their arms off to stop forearm rotation to try to keep the ball away from the left side of the course which oft times will then put them right of target.

But these club players have a grip in a position already that easily allows face to both to get to square & pass through square. Often then best to first change path by asking the player to swing a little ways more right through impact (with alignment aids if necessary) but now also allowing their forearms to rotate over, to stop the arms holdoff that they have adopted, explaining to them that their ball will go consistently a good ways to the left.

As with their grip as it is, this is where the ball should be going & this is what's needed to be achieved in order to fix their issue on a permanent basis.

They are always, after a few goes, able to do this consistently well as their grip has 'strength' built into it so getting to square & passing through square is real easy for them & having given them the 'license' to hit the ball left that's what they do.
So then it is a good ways easy to have them move both hands on the handle counter clockwise, to neutral-ish at around 2-ish knuckles depending on the swing motion, then witness the delight on the face as they consistently hit baby draws to target.

Folks at that opposite end of the spectrum, weaker left hand position, coupled with open shoulders, swing path a ways out to in, direction of swing through impact going left. It's oft times a ways more difficult for them to effect good permanent change through trying to change path in isolation first.

A similar approach to fixing the overstrong grip problem, but with players with a left hand grip in the weak end of the spectrum, of changing path only & allowing them to hit shots, which almost always go right with varying degrees of weak flight & curvature then to have to change the grip position after, perhaps is making things a little more troublesome than they need be.

The weaker left hand position has little inherent 'strength/stability' in it to allow it to get the club face angle to square whatever the path.

I've found the weaker end of the spectrum in the left hand position on the handle, more likely will need changing at the same time along with the change in swing path direction in order for the golfer to get the face back to square through impact, both to effect the improvement sought sooner & also to be able then to keep that improvement on a consistent basis going forwards.

Hope that 'Laka' finds success in continuing to improve his game.

 

[bobmac]

(There isn't a neutral 2-ish to 2 & 1/2 knuckles on the left hand, the V between thumb & forefinger is more pointing towards the left ear, that would put it in the weak position spectrum to me)

Place your hand on a grip with the V pointing at your left ear. Now look at your wrist. Now compare that with the picture above. Nothing like it.
If Laka had a weak left hand then I would agree with everything you've said but as I have said, I dont think he has.

From the Op....

sometimes its straight, some times slice/fade and sometimes pull/draw...inconsistent swing.. also often hit the ball thin, and like slice the blade on impact

If the v is pointing at the left ear which is very weak, how do you explain the pull draw which has to have a left swing path and the clubface closed to the path?

Anyway Laka, IMHO, improve your swing path and that will help your game no end.

 

[Laka]

Thanks both for your efforts to explain the movements and grips....i will start to width the stance and to have the weight on inside of the right foot... after that i will try to adjust my shoulder alignment and that will probably help my swingpath some.. Then i shall try to correct the path and grip some and see what it can lead to.. But there will be problems due to lack of ability to move and coordinate due to natural stiffness coming with ageing...but some improvment should be in reach....

 

[the_coach]

Good luck with it all, your swing motion is moving pretty well for someone who says they're a ways ... 'old & stiff' ... ha! keep moving to keep it 'oiled', am sure you will reach those improvements. Swing & play well.

 

[the_coach]

Don't want to hijack Laka's thread in this way (sorry Laka).

But, in answer to the questions asked.

Looking at the front on address position, the V from the left hand points to the left hand side of the face, points nowhere near even the right of the face or the right ear.
To me that would put the left hand in the weak spectrum, pretty easy to get that weak hand position along with the wrist condition shown, even more so if grip is lying a little ways further up in the palm.

Seeing a grip in that position presented to me with the shot patterns described, so presumably then seeing those shots manifest themselves to varying degrees of contacts on asking player to hit some shots. Before rushing straight into trying to get a path change, I'd want to see how the handle lay in the hand, in case it was a ways too much in the palm. Even if not, I probably would move the left hand a little ways to the right on the handle then work to give the player a thought to help change the path direction, to effect a ways quicker change & not run the risk of shots starting direction to the right with curvature out to the right.

Grip influences path swing direction, this swing path direction is swinging left through impact. For me as well as the working on path it would be of benefit to look at strengthening the left hand to aid change to the path direction. As a left hand with little more 'strength' in it can better support the left arm working down the chest to have club in position at delivery to then swing a little ways from the inside, clubhead then out & through to target better.

The 'pull draw' a tad like a 'unicorn' .
Sure varying degrees of pulls given the possible varying degrees of leftwards path direction with face square to paths. Sure varying degrees of pull hooks given the varying degrees of leftwards path with the varying degrees of closed face angle.

Looking at the movement of the swing motion through impact, would be fairly easy to tweak the right hand, arm, over through impact to close the face to varying degrees (particularly as a weaker left hand provides less resistance to this) so ball then starts left & has varying degrees of leftwards curvature on the shots.

Perhaps the labeling of hitting pull draws is there through some confusion. As the clubhead is traveling in a leftwards direction with a square face to pull, traveling leftwards with degrees of a closed face angle for different curvature that has initially a leftwards starting direction then curving further left, to varying degrees. Clubface traveling leftwards with differing degrees of open face angle depending how open that face angle was, would then depend how far to the right the ball curves.

But as I said in my first post, fixing the path alone first, give it a go, but if it's proving difficult to achieve, a thing to consider would be for me that left hand grip.
You'd choose not to look at this, okay, no problem.
I would look at the condition of the left hand at the same time as looking to fix the path. Hope that clears up my own view of the issue.

Good luck Laka, if getting to see a PGA pro is possible, then a great ways to go. If you can, my advice would be get him to look at exactly how you form your grip on the handle from hands being open, then you'd know for sure you're in a good place to start from.

 

[Laka]

We had some wintertraining with a pro some years ago, as i recall, he wanted my grip to be stronger and it felt rather strange...as i recall, i tried a firmer grip, but as Bobmac mentioned, many of my shots went left and i missed the green....so i guess i have adjust my grip to suit my "natural" swingpath...

One other thing,,i have not an normal thickness on my clubhandle,, its thicker,,,is that an disadvantage?

anyway...once again..thanks

 

[bobmac]

We had some wintertraining with a pro some years ago, as i recall, he wanted my grip to be stronger and it felt rather strange...as i recall, i tried a firmer grip, but as Bobmac mentioned, many of my shots went left and i missed the green....so i guess i have adjust my grip to suit my "natural" swingpath...

One other thing,,i have not an normal thickness on my clubhandle,, its thicker,,,is that an disadvantage?

anyway...once again..thanks

As I said, if you strengthen your grip, you will hit it left all day
Below is a pic of Nick Faldo well into the followthrough.



Note how you still cant see his left elbow and how high his club is.

If you see your pic below, you will your elbow has popped out behind you with very low hands and club



If you improve your swing path, you will improve your direction, your contact and gain significant distance on all your shots as there will be less of a glancing blow at the ball.

As for the thickness of the grip....
That would make it slightly more difficult to square the clubface up at impact but only slightly.
If you have large hands, I wouldn't worry about it.


Good luck with the changes.
Bob McArthur
PGA Professional