Am i allowed to continue playing ??

[nyckuk]

Match play
Both playing our second shots to the green , I had a shot on this hole over him
he hits his into a Red penalty area (ditch) by the green
I shank mine , lost ball , so drop and hit another and miss left into some light ruff to the left off the green
We find his in the ditch and he takes a drop
we both then looked for mine , the rough was slightly thicker than originally thought but just couldn't find it , even though we see it bounce a few times
The 3 minutes was up , I couldn't be bothered to go back to hit another as he was just off the green , I told him to carry on , but didn't conceded the hole
He then duffed it into the bunker then thinned it out into another bunker and duffed it out of that one
As i had a shot on this hole i thought if i go back and drop another i might have a chance of halving or even winning the hole.
He was happy for me to go back , but we werent sure about the ruling

Was it ok for him to continue to see if it was worth me going back , or should i declared what i was doing after my 3 minutes was up

He won the hole anyway , just wanted to know for future reference , in case i had won the hole

 

[salfordlad]

Ah, the joys of match play! You were entitled to keep playing, but that is as clear a case of rule 5.6 breach, unreasonable delay of play - one stroke penalty - as I've come across.

 

[Colin L]

..... I told him to carry on , but didn't concede the hole......

What exactly did you say?

 

[nyckuk]

What exactly did you say?

Basically as i previously mentioned I just said " you carry on" ... Thinking in my head if he chips on ill conceded the hole ,I thought the same on his next shot ,it was only when he duffed his 3rd shot we agreed ill go back and play another

 

[Smiffy]

What exactly did you say?

I would have said, "If this makes You've been framed we'll share the money".
????

 

[Slab]

So (without wishing to sound harsh) does the OP want to have his cake and eat it too

From reading it sounds like you want to ‘skip’ your turn to play because you “cant be bothered” to take stroke and distance penalty… but you're not prepared to concede the hole (leaving your opponent in limbo) so you tell your opponent to continue playing their ball and play out of turn (to see how many shots it takes them to hole out) and if they should screw up & take sufficient shots that you think you can better it you also want the option to ‘restart’ play of the hole for yourself, only now you have prior knowledge of a minimum possible score for your opponent?

I’ll wager the scenario regularly crops up in match play and I’m interested in the official ruling from our experts… and what is best practice on how to proceed so that the situation is avoided


edit to add: @nyckuk I think that does come across harsh and i realise you're not necessarily saying you wanted to do this, you're just seeking clarification if it is an option open to players

 

[HampshireHog]

It’s not in the spirit of the game to carry on after you have encouraged your opponent to play out of turn.

Had few opponents over over the years suggest I play my shot before they decide whether to walk back to the tee. Never going to happen.

 

[3offTheTee]

The other player would have been playing out of turn if the poster had not played his shot along with all the problems that could be involved

 

[rulefan]

As suggested above. 5.6 penalty.

 

[Colin L]

I don't see undue delay in this. Opponent agrees in effect to playing out of turn and plays two shots and then player goes back and plays under S&D and they carry on. Or,
player goes back and plays under S&D and then opponent plays two shots and they carry on. Same actions; same time taken up; just a different sequence.

I'd hoped to make what the player said into a concession, but "you carry on" doesn't do it for me. They are allowed to agree to playing out of turn. In the end, I don't see anything amiss rules-wise in what happened. The opponent was arguably naive, misguided, foolish, or genuinely had no problem with playing first. I'm glad he won the hole, though.

 

[rulefan]

I don't see undue delay in this. Opponent agrees in effect to playing out of turn and plays two shots and then player goes back and plays under S&D and they carry on. Or,
player goes back and plays under S&D and then opponent plays two shots and they carry on. Same actions; same time taken up; just a different sequence.

I'd hoped to make what the player said into a concession, but "you carry on" doesn't do it for me. They are allowed to agree to playing out of turn. In the end, I don't see anything amiss rules-wise in what happened. The opponent was arguably naive, misguided, foolish, or genuinely had no problem with playing first. I'm glad he won the hole, though.

I didn't seem that the player was prepared in advance for the next stroke and be ready to play when it is his or her turn.
Was he really close enough and ready to play within 40 seconds?

 

[nyckuk]

So (without wishing to sound harsh) does the OP want to have his cake and eat it too

From reading it sounds like you want to ‘skip’ your turn to play because you “cant be bothered” to take stroke and distance penalty… but you're not prepared to concede the hole (leaving your opponent in limbo) so you tell your opponent to continue playing their ball and play out of turn (to see how many shots it takes them to hole out) and if they should screw up & take sufficient shots that you think you can better it you also want the option to ‘restart’ play of the hole for yourself, only now you have prior knowledge of a minimum possible score for your opponent?

I’ll wager the scenario regularly crops up in match play and I’m interested in the official ruling from our experts… and what is best practice on how to proceed so that the situation is avoided


edit to add: @nyckuk I think that does come across harsh and i realise you're not necessarily saying you wanted to do this, you're just seeking clarification if it is an option open to players

No problem ... as long as we get the correct ruling .Which seems to be I was allowed to do what i did , but with a possible breach of rule 5.6

Suggesting he carry on defiantly wasn't a tactical decision , It was more i was totally Pissed off as i shanked my second shot then lost a brand new Pro V where i thought it was perfectly safe
I had a last ditch attempt looking for my ball in a adjacent bush when I suggested he carries on out of frustration , which obviously he agreed to other wise he would of asked i was conceding or continuing

Clearly it was all my opponents fault for hitting his shot into both bunkers allowing for this situation to arise

 

[BiMGuy]

It’s not in the spirit of the game to carry on after you have encouraged your opponent to play out of turn.

Had few opponents over over the years suggest I play my shot before they decide whether to walk back to the tee. Never going to happen.

100% Agree with this. Either go back and play your shot. Or concede the hole.

If I was your opponent I would given you these options. No way am I going to play out of turn so my opponent can decide whether to bother to continue or not.

 

[LincolnShep]

100% Agree with this. Either go back and play your shot. Or concede the hole.

If I was your opponent I would given you these options. No way am I going to play out of turn so my opponent can decide whether to bother to continue or not.

Absolutely this. If I'm told to 'carry on', I would ask if that's a concession or not. If not, I'll wait thanks.

 

[Sats]

100% Agree with this. Either go back and play your shot. Or concede the hole.

If I was your opponent I would given you these options. No way am I going to play out of turn so my opponent can decide whether to bother to continue or not.

This^

 

[Orikoru]

Sounds like the worst match play hole of all time, what did it win it with, a quad bogey??

I couldn't be bothered to go back to hit another as he was just off the green , I told him to carry on , but didn't conceded the hole
He then duffed it into the bunker then thinned it out into another bunker and duffed it out of that one
As i had a shot on this hole i thought if i go back and drop another i might have a chance of halving or even winning the hole.
He was happy for me to go back , but we werent sure about the ruling

I'm not the biggest expert on rules (understatement) but it sounds like he could really have claimed the hole when you said 'carry on', but he neglected to do so, and then let you off the hook afterwards by allowing you to go back and play later on. So you were on shaky ground but he let you get away with it. And then he won the hole anyway so he didn't need to lose any sleep over it. But if you'd have managed a half he'd have been kicking himself I think.

 

[nyckuk]

Sounds like the worst match play hole of all time, what did it win it with, a quad bogey??

It defiantly wasn't my worst hole .... Disaster round start to finish

 

[Colin L]

I didn't seem that the player was prepared in advance for the next stroke and be ready to play when it is his or her turn.
Was he really close enough and ready to play within 40 seconds?

The opponent implicitly agreed to play out of turn. The player was ready to go back to play S&D when it was his turn to play. Where is the undue delay?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The opponent implicitly agreed to play out of turn. The player was ready to go back to play S&D when it was his turn to play. Where is the undue delay?

The OP could have intervened at any point but delayed doing so to see how his opponent got on? Though in truth I think his opponent was a bit ‘matchplay naive‘ by continuing to play - apart from anything else he didn’t know what he was playing against as the OP hadn’t decided what to do.

But there would have been a point at which OPs opponent played out of turn for a second time without the OK from the OP? Under the rules should the OP have pointed out the second time his opponent played out of turn? Because at that point the opponent could claim that by not doing so the OP had effectively conceded the hole or was unduly delaying things? I doubt it but just wondering what the rules might say.

 

[salfordlad]

I don't see undue delay in this. Opponent agrees in effect to playing out of turn and plays two shots and then player goes back and plays under S&D and they carry on. Or,
player goes back and plays under S&D and then opponent plays two shots and they carry on. Same actions; same time taken up; just a different sequence.

I'd hoped to make what the player said into a concession, but "you carry on" doesn't do it for me. They are allowed to agree to playing out of turn. In the end, I don't see anything amiss rules-wise in what happened. The opponent was arguably naive, misguided, foolish, or genuinely had no problem with playing first. I'm glad he won the hole, though.

Two comments: first, we can agree to disagree on undue delay. IMO, once the player decided he wished to continue play, he gets the 5.6 penalty and that is how I as referee would rule. Reason is not complicated: it is the player's turn to play yet he failed to proceed while the opponent a) played a stroke into a bunker b) went into that bunker and thinned a stroke into another bunker and c) made their way to the other bunker and then duffed another stroke. All this while it is the other player's turn to play. If that is not undue delay, I don't know what is. IMO, there is no way a player can simply discontinue play when it is his turn, for however many minutes the opponent took for those multiple strokes, and then just jump back into the fray without rule 5.6 implications ("A player must not unreasonably delay play......".)
Second: opponents do not have free rein to agree to play out of turn. While permitted under specific circumstances (6.4a(2) Exception) - to save time - if players agree to play out of turn solely for other reasons, those players have agreed to waive a rule (1.3b(1)). And the permitted agreement must be freshly agreed on every occasion. In the OP, it didn't appear to occur at all. And there is no such thing as 'implicit' agreement to play out of turn.