Adjustable driver loft and affect on spin

[Foxholer]

I agree but, as I say, it's not a like-for-like comparison.

It would be like saying my 58° wedge spins more than my 3 iron.

Read this thread then! http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15099-spin-loft-backspin-attack-angle.html

Or Google Spin Loft and download/read the Trackman Newsletter7

Then pay me the 20 mins you owe me! :rofl:

 

[bobmac]

Talk about a hijack

 

[One Planer]

Read this thread then! http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15099-spin-loft-backspin-attack-angle.html

Spin loft is the difference between AoA and dynamic loft. If you have a level strike and deliver 20 degrees of loft your spin loft is 20. If you hit up on the ball 5 degrees and deliver 20 degrees of dynamic loft your spin loft is 15 degrees. You can up up, level or down and not increase or decrease spin if this "spin loft" number stays the same. The only thing that would change with a center hit would be vertical launch angle.

Are we talking spin as a ° or RPM?

Based on the variables and conditions I stated in post #13, the spin loft would be fractionally higher based on the difference of the loft(2.5°) of the club head, but how does that translate in RPM?

Does it translate?

 

[Foxholer]

Read that Newsletter I mentioned - Fundamental 3!

25 minutes!

 

[Maninblack4612]

Not really a relivant example.

While true a 9 iron has more loft, it also has a more upright shaft meaning it's struck with a steep angle of attack. By comparison a 5 iron has a much flatter lie and is struck with a much shallower AoA. Still negative, but not by any where near the same amount as a 9 iron.

If were talking simple physics, you cannot have 2 wildly differing variables (5 and 9 iron) as, by design, the are used differently.


If you were to take two drivers. Same shaft, same head type, same robot swinging the club. One having a 9.5° loft and the other 12° and both being hit with the same 1° +AoA, I would bet there wouldn't be a massive difference in spin, but there would be a difference in launch angle, purely because of the increased loft (2.5°) between the two heads.

Again, I'm happy to be proved wrong, but given the exact same impact conditions, I cannot understand how there can be a difference in spin. Launch angle yes. Spin, I'm not convinced.

If you had a 9 iron the same length as a driver it would produce a lot more backspin, it's simple physics. Granted the difference between 9° & 12° won't be much but more loft HSS to give more backspin.

 

[the_coach]

I had a Trackman session at the start of this summer and my numbers on AoA were fairly consistent around -3. Obviously meaning I was hitting down, rather than up but I couldn't work out in the short session how I could actually improve that. This combined with a lower loft made for a very low ball flight and a loss of distance. I have no idea what the spin rate was.

as has been pointed out could well be down to you moving too far towards target before impact.
it's in general to do with where the low point of your swing arc falls in relation to where impact is - with a driver off a tee you want that low point to be some 3" to 4" prior to impact so the clubhead has 'leveled' out at low point so then it is on the rise into & through impact.

crucial to consider the low point of any swing arc with whatever club from putter thru driver will occur approximately opposite your sternum, so real crucial just where your sternum/center is in relation to the ball position not just at impact but also at address.

so if you move leftwards laterally too much prior to impact with the hips + upper body & head & you move that 'low point' right upto or in front of the ball so you are then going to hit downwards through impact. as well as hitting with a negative attack angle you then doing this would also be going to de-loft the face some too, so flight would be a ways too low & not a bunch of distance, plus this face orientation to the ball will likely mean your point of impact is pretty high up on the face.

set-up is key, ball position, I advise folks to have there driver ball position opposite the lead or left armpit. {as stance foot width can be unreliable as folks can have wide or narrower stances, or closed or open stances so the ball in relation to heel position can be a whole heap different} also if you think about it the lead or left shoulder is the fulcrum/radius of the left arm + club in the swing motion.

key too, not mentioned in the thread yet - is tee height.
(often times teeing the ball a little ways too low will encourage a downwards & de-lofted strike through impact)
tee height as a guide you'd want the equator of the ball level with the top middle of the crown of the driver. to many folks who often don't make solid contact with the driver this can often times look to be too high as they don't think up at this height they can ever make solid contact - but it something that's crucial to either a level strike through the ball or even better a +AoA.

also key is the secondary spine tilt away from target, so top of spine is further away from the ball than the bottom of the spine, left shoulder higher than the right. so with this the sternum/center is some 3" to 4"+ inches away from the ball. before the takeaway starts & crucially this positional relationship needs to remain so.

I see so many folks who get a reasonably good tee height, ball position in a good forwards location & they have a reasonable secondary spine tilt at first address position.
trouble is they feel uncomfortable as they feel their center plus head is a ways too far to the right. so during the 'settle' period prior to takeaway they proceed to undo this original good set-up by angling their head, face, eyes & chest to be facing & squarer to their forwards ball position - which immediately loses their secondary tilt & places their sternum +head rightways up to the ball presetting their swings low point to far left, during the transition & downswing it then moves further left -so -AoA + de-loft plus ball high off the face.

{re the thread within the thread. spin loft at it's simplest is the difference at collision between the dynamic loft & the attack angle. spin loft in degrees is directly correlated to the rpms of backspin produced & ball speed. the bigger the spin loft angle in degrees at collision the greater the back spin will be produced in rpms plus the lower the ball speed}

 

[the_coach]

have a look at this in relation to where the sternum center needs to be. using the driver clubhead opposite the sternum so well behind the ball at address is a real good range drill.

so to get/move the clubhead behind the ball at address when out during play, you just move the hands arms upto the ball by moving the left shoulder up right shoulder under towards the ball but not moving the head or chest orientation position at all, sternum remains opposite & facing a position some 4" behind the ball so the chest shoulders hips remain also parallel left to the target line.

[video=youtube_share;lnopJFvTa3Q]http://youtu.be/lnopJFvTa3Q[/video]

 

[the_coach]

good drill with an empty ball sleeve box.

[video=youtube_share;mfli4ocXFzk]http://youtu.be/mfli4ocXFzk[/video]

 

[woody69]

Thanks Coach. Some great points to think about. Will definitely take that to the range this Fri and see if any improvements can be made

 

[Wildrover]

If you had a 9 iron the same length as a driver it would produce a lot more backspin, it's simple physics. Granted the difference between 9° & 12° won't be much but more loft HSS to give more backspin.

One thing you're forgetting is the quality of strike. A player who plays with a slice will spin the ball a lot. If you give them more loft this will also cause the driver to sit squarer at address. This in turn should lead to them striking the ball better, reducing the amount of fade and thus the amount of spin. I know fade is side spin but a fade flight will also produce more backspin.

 

[Foxholer]

One thing you're forgetting is the quality of strike. A player who plays with a slice will spin the ball a lot. If you give them more loft this will also cause the driver to sit squarer at address. This in turn should lead to them striking the ball better, reducing the amount of fade and thus the amount of spin. I know fade is side spin but a fade flight will also produce more backspin.

I disagree with almost all of this!

The only reason there's 'more' spin on fade flights is because it's rather easier to do! That's because legs get in the way of 'exaggerated' Draw shots and the body is turning (and staying upright) in a way that encourages a cut across the ball rather than around it!

More loft reduces the effect of the 'sidespin' because there is more backspin - so the spin-axis is closer to zero.

 

[ScienceBoy]

I recently realised I was hitting down on my driver, a couple of range sessions later and it was just amazing.

Works for my 3 wood and hybrid too as I was hitting down TOO much with these too! I also added width to my swing which further increased control and distance. I was nailing my 3 wood past the driver of the big guy in the bay next to me!

I hit better shots with all these down.

 

[Wildrover]

I disagree with almost all of this!

The only reason there's 'more' spin on fade flights is because it's rather easier to do! That's because legs get in the way of 'exaggerated' Draw shots and the body is turning (and staying upright) in a way that encourages a cut across the ball rather than around it!

More loft reduces the effect of the 'sidespin' because there is more backspin - so the spin-axis is closer to zero.

I guess the trackman lies to me then.

 

[duncan mackie]

I guess the trackman lies to me then.

as he's primarily disagreeing with "If you give them more loft this will also cause the driver to sit squarer at address. This in turn should lead to them striking the ball better, reducing the amount of fade and thus the amount of spin", which deals with cause rather than effect, I can't see how the data can be a factor - only the interpretation!

there are hugely complex factors at play in the simple scenario presented; including the psychological effect of providing a distance club with more loft. Some people will instinctively close it at address to look more powerful, some will dynamically close it through impact for the same reason etc etc

the only reality is that with the same swing it will deliver more spin in the vertical plane (let's agree to call it backspin!) which, alone, will straighten any shot because the actual curved flight is a result of the difference between the horizontal and vertical spin elements.

whilst many amateur golfers will strike the ball better with a more lofted club, there's no technical reason - in fact the overall quality of the strike will be negatively impacted by any additional spin loft (as already discussed in the thread).

trackman never lies - it can be programmed to mislead but any data can easily be misinterpreted

 

[Foxholer]

I guess the trackman lies to me then.

Absolutely not! It's the conclusions/explanations (about the causes) that are wrong!

Re-read the frst line of my 2nd paragraph!

DM beat me to it again! :rofl:

 

[Smiffy]

Despite the fact that I'm playing quite well at the moment, I am guilty of not hitting up on my drives.
Don't know how it's happened but it's crept in lately and I'm hitting everything with the driver much lower than I was during the summer. Have watched the Crossfield video and he talks a great deal of sense.
I'm not one for practicing but I'm going to be working on this over the next few weeks.

 

[Piece]

trackman never lies - it can be programmed to mislead but any data can easily be misinterpreted

Not entirely true. Some of its ball data is calculated not measured - the big one is spin axis. It can measure how fast the spin is, but can only calculate the spin direction from other ball data. More often or not it gets it right, but it can get it wrong and can't be as accurate as something that measures spin directly (GC2).

 

[pendodave]

Having seen on flightscope that I was launching miles too low, I watched the coach's videos and headed out to the range with ball box in hand....

On the course yesterday and today I was hitting high bombs with a touch of draw. My mate couldn't believe the difference. If anything, one or two were too high, but that seems a minor inconvenience. Even the high ones were straight and out the middle. Not much run tho...

Proof of the crossfield maxim that it's the swing, not the shaft.

Thanks for the vids, coach. You have a great stock of pertinent advice.

 

[the_coach]

Having seen on flightscope that I was launching miles too low, I watched the coach's videos and headed out to the range with ball box in hand....

On the course yesterday and today I was hitting high bombs with a touch of draw. My mate couldn't believe the difference. If anything, one or two were too high, but that seems a minor inconvenience. Even the high ones were straight and out the middle. Not much run tho...

Proof of the crossfield maxim that it's the swing, not the shaft.

Thanks for the vids, coach. You have a great stock of pertinent advice.

good it helped you some.
if when you do drill in practice or are out playing & the flight seems to be getting over high, just be aware that when coming into impact the back of the left hand isn't flexing upwards to look skywards, so make sure you are keeping the angle in back of right hand to right arm into the strike.