Abnormal Ground Conditions?

[WinBase]

While just reading another thread where rule 25 came into play stating that a ball could be moved under no penalty if 'abnormal ground conditions' were evident, however this seems like it could be quite subjective as to what 'abnormal' means and to what degree. A few holes at our course have totally bare patches on the greens due to a disease that's either hung over from last winter or people using petrol powered remote control cars late on when the course is empty, & although attempts have been made at re-seeding still have a 'lip' around them, meaning that if they are on your putting line, a ball going in and out is usually thrown off line or up in the air. A ruling has been made that if your ball lands IN one of these patches, you can move it NPR no nearer the hole, but if a bare patch is ON your line then tough luck, it has to be played through. This has caused a bit of aggro among players on a weekly basis, & almost all of us think its crazy & unfair and we should get relief. rule 25-1 seems to clearly state that this is what is termed 'interference' and that the ball can legally be lifted and placed without penalty, so if a player played took relief against what appears to be a wrong committee decision that's contrary to a 'standard rule', could he be penalised?. Personally I always play through the bare patch as directed and if anyone asks I say they cant do it, but I suspect in other games some players DO take relief

 

[BTatHome]

Well there is a definition in the rules, not sure how your local rule is worded. Would be interesting to see.

Abnormal Ground Conditions
An “abnormal ground condition” is any casual water, ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.

 

[Spuddy]

While just reading another thread where rule 25 came into play stating that a ball could be moved under no penalty if 'abnormal ground conditions' were evident, however this seems like it could be quite subjective as to what 'abnormal' means and to what degree. A few holes at our course have totally bare patches on the greens due to a disease that's either hung over from last winter or people using petrol powered remote control cars late on when the course is empty, & although attempts have been made at re-seeding still have a 'lip' around them, meaning that if they are on your putting line, a ball going in and out is usually thrown off line or up in the air. A ruling has been made that if your ball lands IN one of these patches, you can move it NPR no nearer the hole, but if a bare patch is ON your line then tough luck, it has to be played through. This has caused a bit of aggro among players on a weekly basis, & almost all of us think its crazy & unfair and we should get relief. rule 25-1 seems to clearly state that this is what is termed 'interference' and that the ball can legally be lifted and placed without penalty, so if a player played took relief against what appears to be a wrong committee decision that's contrary to a 'standard rule', could he be penalised?. Personally I always play through the bare patch as directed and if anyone asks I say they cant do it, but I suspect in other games some players DO take relief

Speak to your committee and ask them to clarify why they've created a local rule that appears to contradict rule 25. It may be a simple error that no one has pointed out.

 

[bladeplayer]

While just reading another thread where rule 25 came into play stating that a ball could be moved under no penalty if 'abnormal ground conditions' were evident, however this seems like it could be quite subjective as to what 'abnormal' means and to what degree. A few holes at our course have totally bare patches on the greens due to a disease that's either hung over from last winter or people using petrol powered remote control cars late on when the course is empty, & although attempts have been made at re-seeding still have a 'lip' around them, meaning that if they are on your putting line, a ball going in and out is usually thrown off line or up in the air. A ruling has been made that if your ball lands IN one of these patches, you can move it NPR no nearer the hole, but if a bare patch is ON your line then tough luck, it has to be played through. This has caused a bit of aggro among players on a weekly basis, & almost all of us think its crazy & unfair and we should get relief. rule 25-1 seems to clearly state that this is what is termed 'interference' and that the ball can legally be lifted and placed without penalty, so if a player played took relief against what appears to be a wrong committee decision that's contrary to a 'standard rule', could he be penalised?. Personally I always play through the bare patch as directed and if anyone asks I say they cant do it, but I suspect in other games some players DO take relief

AGC are clearly define under 25-1 not sublective in anyway , your problem is not included

Local rule seems fair BUT if condition of greens are as bad as you say the LR is not going far enough


I agree & would gather others of same thinking & approach committee for change of LR


EDIT .. sorry its all just been answered .. too slow

 

[Tarkus1212]

Confusion being caused by clubs introducing unnecessary local rules. If there is an intention to do something about the bare patches then they should be marked as GUR and on the green you get relief if GUR is on the line of your putt.

edit - too late....serves me right for listening to the radio whilst posting

 

[duncan mackie]

Speak to your committee and ask them to clarify why they've created a local rule that appears to contradict rule 25. It may be a simple error that no one has pointed out.

I do not see how rule 25 applies to patches of green recovering from fusarium (I assume) or the effects of radio controlled cars. Hence a LR has been introduced.

If it was all declared GUR i strongly suspect that it would not be possible to find a path to the hole that avoided all of them after moving a ball - which would result in a penalty for not taking full relief!

Basically the course wouldn't be playable for competition play.


So the committee have done what they can to enable competitive play.

Works for me

 

[WinBase]

I do not see how rule 25 applies to patches of green recovering from fusarium (I assume) or the effects of radio controlled cars. Hence a LR has been introduced.

If it was all declared GUR i strongly suspect that it would not be possible to find a path to the hole that avoided all of them after moving a ball - which would result in a penalty for not taking full relief!

Basically the course wouldn't be playable for competition play.


So the committee have done what they can to enable competitive play.

Works for me

Thanks for the input, but while there are quite a number of these patches of various sizes on some of the greens, its not really difficult to find a line close by that avoids them. They are more an annoyance than rendering the course unplayable, taking full relief is usually possible. To my mind a bare patch with a grassy lip that affects the roll of the ball on the green IS an abnormal ground condition (and subject to rule 25) as its not something normally associated with how the green should be, but hey-ho as i said its about the definition of what 'abnormal' means to some degree, so i'll get a letter sent in and see if what's said. GL

 

[rulefan]

Thanks for the input, but while there are quite a number of these patches of various sizes on some of the greens, its not really difficult to find a line close by that avoids them. They are more an annoyance than rendering the course unplayable, taking full relief is usually possible. To my mind a bare patch with a grassy lip that affects the roll of the ball on the green IS an abnormal ground condition (and subject to rule 25) as its not something normally associated with how the green should be, but hey-ho as i said its about the definition of what 'abnormal' means to some degree, so i'll get a letter sent in and see if what's said. GL

The only form of an Abnormal Ground Condition that applies here is 'Ground Under Repair'.
It is not Casual Water nor a hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.
GUR has to be marked or defined by the Committee under a Local Rule. It cannot be arbitrarily decided upon by the player(s).

How has the committee marked the areas or what does the local rule say?

If it is fusarium, it's not that abnormal. Most courses suffer from it most of the time.

 

[WinBase]

The only form of an Abnormal Ground Condition that applies here is 'Ground Under Repair'.
It is not Casual Water nor a hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.
GUR has to be marked or defined by the Committee under a Local Rule. It cannot be arbitrarily decided upon by the player(s).

How has the committee marked the areas or what does the local rule say?

If it is fusarium, it's not that abnormal. Most courses suffer from it most of the time.

Thanks for the info - i'm not disagreeing or wanting to be argumentative lol, but it sounds reasonable to expect that if you get relief via a LR when you land in a bare patch, then its only a short hop to expect relief if one is just in front of you. there are no marked GUR areas as there would be a lot, and the affected greens would look like a badly tie dyed t-shirt with all the small rings if they were marked in white - I actually don't know where the rule is written or if indeed it is, our handicap secretary tells people all the time so its commonly known, but it does need proper clarification, even though it doesn't feel 'right' to most of us

 

[Foxholer]

...To my mind a bare patch with a grassy lip that affects the roll of the ball on the green IS an abnormal ground condition (and subject to rule 25) as its not something normally associated with how the green should be, but hey-ho as i said its about the definition of what 'abnormal' means to some degree, so i'll get a letter sent in and see if what's said. GL

So are different species/grains of grass, Poa flowers, spike marks, poorly repaired pitch marks and several other things that happen on greens. It seems to me that your particular problem (likely to be fusarium by the sound of it) is being handled in about as reasonable a way as possible. Greenies presumably place the pins in areas least affected by this golf course scourge, but it's likely you will have poor greens for a year or 2 yet - and your (pre)Winter and early Spring spraying budget will need increasing! Probably blown any intentions/pretentions of being 'Green' too!

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks for the info - i'm not disagreeing or wanting to be argumentative lol, but it sounds reasonable to expect that if you get relief via a LR when you land in a bare patch, then its only a short hop to expect relief if one is just in front of you. there are no marked GUR areas as there would be a lot, and the affected greens would look like a badly tie dyed t-shirt with all the small rings if they were marked in white - I actually don't know where the rule is written or if indeed it is, our handicap secretary tells people all the time so its commonly known, but it does need proper clarification, even though it doesn't feel 'right' to most of us

The key bit you seem to be ignoring is that a bare patch is not an 'abnormal ground condition'.

Having a fringe of grass around it doesn't make any difference!

As rulefan highlighted, if the committee declare it as GUR then the applicable rules apply - they haven't. I suggested reasons they might chose not to ( and the resultant delays to play would be included in my assessment of which approach to take in any given situation)

Your committee have decided to grant relief from playing from these areas; sounds quick to implement, easy to understand and reasonable.

Getting things fixed is obviously the best solution - transplanting the ears being the usual solution via the hole cutting equipment - this only falls down when the volume is excessive.

 

[SammmeBee]

Find another club with decent greens maybe?!?!

 

[Region3]

Maybe they'd change the LR or decide it was GUR if everybody started chipping over them.

I'd certainly consider doing that if running through a patch of it affected my ball too much.