A slightly complicated incident

[chrisd]

This happened with a player in the group in front last Sunday, I have since chatted with him and am able the give extra detail to what we saw at the time

The player

Hit his 1st tee shot left, there is a lateral water hazard (stream)running down that side and an adjacent fairway/rough etc

He hit a provisional ball into the same area/direction

He hit a second provisional the same

He spent 10 minutes looking for 2 of the balls in the same area ie 5 minutes per ball but didn't find any of the 3 balls

He then went to the side of the stream where roughly all 3 balls would have passed through/over high tree and bushes and was about to take a penalty drop without finding a single ball.

He then spotted in the rough, on his hole, a ball that was the first provisional, and walked down and played it on to the green and single putted

He recorded a 5 on the par 4 hole

I had a chat with him yesterday about his course of action but want to be sure that I was right to do so.

 

[pbrown7582]

My take on this:

He just decided that 1 ball was in water after 10mins searching mmmm....

The ball he was was surely incorrect as was found after time.

Correct course if action would of been back to tee to hit ball 4 shot 7?

 

[Foxholer]

My take on this:

He just decided that 1 ball was in water after 10mins searching mmmm....

The ball he was was surely incorrect as was found after time.

Correct course if action would of been back to tee to hit ball 4 shot 7?

Likewise for me.

You don't get 5 mins searching per ball if they are in the same area - just 5 mins!

The fact that a Provisional Ball was hit means that you are not certain that the ball is in the water hazard - unless the rare LR is in play. So dropping beside the hazard would have been wrong too! I presume you also asked him what shot count he expected to be playing if he had done so!

 

[freddielong]

My take on this:

He just decided that 1 ball was in water after 10mins searching mmmm....

The ball he was was surely incorrect as was found after time.

Correct course if action would of been back to tee to hit ball 4 shot 7?

As above 4th ball from the tee

It would be interesting to know which ball he was now certain went in the hazard

 

[duncan mackie]

27/4 is very clear - .If the two balls are so close together that, in effect, both balls would be searched for simultaneously, a total of five minutes for search is allowed. Otherwise, the player is allowed to search five minutes for each ball.

after 5 minutes all 3 balls were lost and it's 7 off the tee as everyone seems to agree!

it is possible for circumstances to create K or VC that one of the balls was in the hazard; but everything mentioned here would strongly suggest that none apply here!

 

[backwoodsman]

Balls may have been lost outside a hazard so it was ok to play provisionals.
Was not known or virtually certain that any of the balls was in hazard, so not appropriate to proceed under rule 26.
It is possible (?) that two of the balls might be deemed to be sufficiently far apart so as to warrant separate searches, so 2x5min may have been appropriate - but as 10min had passed anyway, balls are still lost.

Therefore as per previous replies only option is to go back and play 7 off the tee

But by playing as he did, he played a wrong ball, didnt correct the mistake, and therefore should be DQ.

 

[chrisd]

I told him yesterday that

He only gets 5 minutes to look for the balls that were in the same area, he would get another 5 minutes if the 2nd provisional was deemed in a different location, but, as he had gone to take a penalty drop (but didn't actually drop or play a ball) after some 10 + minutes had elapsed and before he spotted one of his balls then he was definitely out of time

He could not drop out of the lateral hazard anyway because he hadn't found a ball of his in there, and because he had played provisionals the certain or virtual certainty rule didn't apply. He then played a ball that was lost and should have gone back to the tee. He didn't correct the errors before teeing off the next hole and therefore should have been dq'd for signing a card with a wrong score

I think I pretty well got it right then

 

[Foxholer]

Of course Stableford or Handicap he'd only be DQ-ed from that hole.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I told him yesterday that

as he had gone to take a penalty drop (but didn't actually drop or play a ball) after some 10 + minutes had elapsed and before he spotted one of his balls then he was definitely out of time

I think I pretty well got it right then

The only bit i disagree with, and it may be how you wrote it, is that. It doesn't matter what ge "went" to do, as that doesn't deem the previous ball lost. If he had dropped it, that would have deemed it lost (albeit incorrectly in this case), or by the time period running out.

I think? (May be wrong)

 

[chrisd]

Of course Stableford or Handicap he'd only be DQ-ed from that hole.

Agreed Fox, it was strokeplay though

 

[chrisd]

The only bit i disagree with, and it may be how you wrote it, is that. It doesn't matter what ge "went" to do, as that doesn't deem the previous ball lost. If he had dropped it, that would have deemed it lost (albeit incorrectly in this case), or by the time period running out.

I think? (May be wrong)

The balls were all lost because of the time rule. I only told him about the drop rule as he clearly didn't know that particular rule either and not because he did it, as, in actual fact he didn't do it.

 

[pbrown7582]

The only bit i disagree with, and it may be how you wrote it, is that. It doesn't matter what ge "went" to do, as that doesn't deem the previous ball lost. If he had dropped it, that would have deemed it lost (albeit incorrectly in this case), or by the time period running out.

I think? (May be wrong)

if its lost its back to the tee, the only way he could drop by the lateral water hazard is if he was certainty it was in there and then there would of been no provisional played

 

[chrisd]

if its lost its back to the tee, the only way he could drop by the lateral water hazard is if he was certainty it was in there and then there would of been no provisional played

............. or if he had played a provisional thinking it may not be in the hazard but found it in there.

 

[Foxholer]

Agreed Fox, it was strokeplay though

Stableford IS Strokeplay!

I presume you mean 'Medal'!

 

[chrisd]

Stableford IS Strokeplay!

I presume you mean 'Medal'!

Indeed I do!

 

[Stuey01]

Stableford IS Strokeplay!

I presume you mean 'Medal'!

According to the R&A it's Stroke Play. There is no definition of "Medal" in the rules. Stableford is defined and is a form of stroke play. But it does not = Stroke Play.

Medal is just a colloquial term.

If you must be an insufferable pedant then please be accurate.

 

[Colin L]

I've always understand Medal to be the term used for a regular club competition (stroke!) and most often in the term Monthly Medal. Certainly not used in the Rules.

Which reminds me, totally irrelevantly, of the golfer who asked his priest/minister/pastor etc if there was any golf in Heaven. "Well," came the answer, "the good news is that there is a wonderful championship James Braid links course." "That's fantastic, but do you mean there is bad news?" "There is, my son. Your name is on the sheet for Saturday's Monthly Medal."

It's nice weather. I don't need my coat. I'll just go.

 

[freddielong]

I think as you have eluded to the term has come about from the customary monthly medal competition that was always a stroke play event.

 

[duncan mackie]

I've always understand Medal to be the term used for a regular club competition (stroke!) and most often in the term Monthly Medal. Certainly not used in the Rules.

my understanding was that once upon a time..... most golf consisted of matches, but clubs used to hold Spring and Autumn Meetings for which 'Medals' were awarded (as these were times that members historically were around to get to the clubs and compete) and these then became medal events/

As membership became more common (in every sense!) and the members were both in the country more often, and playing golf locally, the cycle shifted to once a month and the 'monthly medal' was born.

Many clubs retain the practice of giving 'medals' for these events.

 

[rulefan]

But by playing as he did, he played a wrong ball, didnt correct the mistake, and therefore should be DQ.

It wasn't a wrong ball. It was a substituted ball played from a wrong place. Almost certainly with a serious breach and subsequent DQ for not correcting it.