a handicap question

[patricks148]

asked one of the guys today if his handicap had been updated by scottish golf, yes he said they dropped it to 10.7 from 12 it was when he last played a comp at his old club in Aberdeen some 6 years ago. he's emailed SG for an explanation??

 

[Colin L]

asked one of the guys today if his handicap had been updated by scottish golf, yes he said they dropped it to 10.7 from 12 it was when he last played a comp at his old club in Aberdeen some 6 years ago. he's emailed SG for an explanation??

You can't directly compare a Congu handicap of 12 with a WHS handicap index of 10.7. You have to consider how many strokes he will get in his course handicap for a particular course. For example, if he plays the white course at my club (Baberton) he will receive 12 strokes, the same as his previous Congu handicap would have given him. If he plays the white course at Murcar up in Aberdeenshire he would receive 13 and next door at Royal Aberdeen he will get 14 on the blue course. On the other hand, if he goes for an easier time at the Merchants in Edinburgh, he will get 10 strokes. That's one of the gains we get from the new system. You get the strokes you need to put you on the same level as a scratch player on the course you are playing. A bespoke handicap, not a one number fits all one.

 

[patricks148]

You can't directly compare a Congu handicap of 12 with a WHS handicap index of 10.7. You have to consider how many strokes he will get in his course handicap for a particular course. For example, if he plays the white course at my club (Baberton) he will receive 12 strokes, the same as his previous Congu handicap would have given him. If he plays the white course at Murcar up in Aberdeenshire he would receive 13 and next door at Royal Aberdeen he will get 14 on the blue course. On the other hand, if he goes for an easier time at the Merchants in Edinburgh, he will get 10 strokes. That's one of the gains we get from the new system. You get the strokes you need to put you on the same level as a scratch player on the course you are playing. A bespoke handicap, not a one number fits all one.

yes i get that, i think he be off 12 or 13 at ours too, the point is he hasn't done a card for 6 years and TBH can't play to 12 any longer it would be more like 24, wonder how SG came up with 10.7 from no scores??

 

[2blue]

thing is these guys have little or no interest in putting in cards, not that they can at the moment anyway as according to the club we moved to an "unrated" course on Monday and now wont be back onto the normal tee's now till April.

its not unusual i'd say we have had a few guys at the club who's game has dropped of a cliff and for some reason stop playing comps as they are not competative off their old handicap, yet won't put scores in as they don't want the embarrassment of putting score over 100.

we want them to enjoy our roll ups more, we do play a lot of team games over winter, it can't be fun not being able to contribute

Can't be a bundle of fun for whoever gets him/them as partners, either.

 

[Swango1980]

yes i get that, i think he be off 12 or 13 at ours too, the point is he hasn't done a card for 6 years and TBH can't play to 12 any longer it would be more like 24, wonder how SG came up with 10.7 from no scores??

That is odd. Any player at our club with a handicap, but who had no scores submitted since Jan 2018, simply had their Index equal to their CONGU handicap. Just checked, and it does not seem like any other changes have been made behind the scenes. So, by that logic, I'd have thought their Index would be 12 to match CONGU handicap.

The only thing I can thing of is that someone at club has made a manual adjustment, perhaps to set the Index to match their old CONGU handicap off the main set of tees? I can see the logic. However, I decided not to do that at our place. This would apply to a lot of members, and my feeling is that if they haven't handed in a card in over 3 years, I'm not going to worry too much about spending time manually adjusting their index. I also suspect most are a lot worse than their CONGU handicap due to lack of game time.

 

[patricks148]

Can't be a bundle of fun for whoever gets him/them as partners, either.

no comment

 

[Colin L]

asked one of the guys today if his handicap had been updated by scottish golf, yes he said they dropped it to 10.7 from 12 it was when he last played a comp at his old club in Aberdeen some 6 years ago. he's emailed SG for an explanation??

yes i get that, i think he be off 12 or 13 at ours too, the point is he hasn't done a card for 6 years and TBH can't play to 12 any longer it would be more like 24, wonder how SG came up with 10.7 from no scores??

I thought you meant he had emailed for an explanation of why his Handicap Index was 10.7 when his CONGU handicap was 12. So what was he looking for an explanation of?

This player has a CONGU handicap of 12 but no scores for 6 years. He can't therefore have a Handicap Index calculated from recent scores and is given one based on his current CONGU handicap.

@Swango1980 To get an approximate equivalent to his CONGU handicap, his 12 will have been back calculated using the slope rating of his home course. HI = 12 x 113 ÷ slope rating

 

[Swango1980]

I thought you meant he had emailed for an explanation of why his Handicap Index was 10.7 when his CONGU handicap was 12. So what was he looking for an explanation of?

This player has a CONGU handicap of 12 but no scores for 6 years. He can't therefore have a Handicap Index calculated from recent scores and is given one based on his current CONGU handicap.

[B]@Swango1980 To get an approximate equivalent to his CONGU handicap, his 12 will have been back calculated using the slope rating of his home course. HI = 12 x 113 ÷ slope rating[/B]

Yeah, but this would have been done manually by someone at the club. The equation you stated would correctly be the one used to calculate the associated index.

 

[rulefan]

Yeah, but this would have been done manually by someone at the club. The equation you stated would correctly be the one used to calculate the associated index.

Why do you think the software wouldn't have been programmed to do that?
I have seen a couple of cases in England (different software) where insufficient scores have left the player with his Index the same as his CONGU exact.

 

[Colin L]

I think I'll go and have a wee lie down.
First I take "he said they dropped it to 10.7 from 12 it was when he last played a comp at his old club in Aberdeen some 6 years ago. he's emailed SG for an explanation" to mean he had asked for an explanation of why his handicap had been "dropped". I can't imagine why .
Then I go and think that "had their Handicap Index equal to their CONGU handicap" meant that their index was equal in value to their CONGU handicap, not that it was the same number since that is not equal.

 

[Swango1980]

Why do you think the software wouldn't have been programmed to do that?
I have seen a couple of cases in England (different software) where insufficient scores have left the player with his Index the same as his CONGU exact.

???
I'm aware that a player who has submitted no scores since Jan 2018 will have an Index equal to their old Congu handicap. That is what I said, and has happened at our club.

In this case, it was stated that the player's Index was set to a lower value than their CONGU handicap. My only guess was this was done manually. I cannot see how it would be automatic, unless it just randomly does it's own thing at different clubs

 

[patricks148]

i think the point is being missed... he has a handicap thats way too low can't play to anything like 12, can't do any cards for the next 4 months until we go back on the normal course.

the role up are going to give him 10 more shots and see what happens, but going forward, if he can only get increased 5 shots in a year its going to take 2 years to get something the guy can play to.. so back to the orig question

 

[Foxholer]

i think the point is being missed... he has a handicap thats way too low can't play to anything like 12, can't do any cards for the next 4 months until we go back on the normal course.

the role up are going to give him 10 more shots and see what happens, but going forward, if he can only get increased 5 shots in a year its going to take 2 years to get something the guy can play to.. so back to the orig question

It's a rollup, so unofficial comp! So you can do anything you like regarding handicaps!
The guys I play with are in similar situation, as I'm the only member (another was up until last year) and don't play comps. However 1 of the group has has been maintaining a spreadheet that works equivalent to WHS (USGA style) for several years!
At a previous club, there several rollup (swindle) groups, 2 with 'serious' cash involved, that had their own handicap adjustment methods. They all worked pretty well at 'equalising' abilities and catering for both drift and improvement.

 

[jim8flog]

i think the point is being missed... he has a handicap thats way too low can't play to anything like 12, can't do any cards for the next 4 months until we go back on the normal course.

the role up are going to give him 10 more shots and see what happens, but going forward, if he can only get increased 5 shots in a year its going to take 2 years to get something the guy can play to.. so back to the orig question

Why should it take 2 years. The player is allowed to put in a pre registered General Play round every time he plays so when you course is back to a rated course it should not take that long . The limit to a 5 increase is only the limit that the club can apply . The club can apply to the area authority to allow a larger increase.

 

[Swango1980]

i think the point is being missed... he has a handicap thats way too low can't play to anything like 12, can't do any cards for the next 4 months until we go back on the normal course.

the role up are going to give him 10 more shots and see what happens, but going forward, if he can only get increased 5 shots in a year its going to take 2 years to get something the guy can play to.. so back to the orig question

The hard cap doesnt apply until a player has 20 scores I believe. So, if the player hands in 3 scores, they will get a fresh WHS Index

 

[rulefan]

Then I go and think that "had their Handicap Index equal to their CONGU handicap" meant that their index was equal in value to their CONGU handicap, not that it was the same number since that is not equal.

In one example I have seen the player had only returned 2 scores since 2017. His CONGU exact was 18.1. Following the transition his index came out as 18.1. To my mind those figures are equal.
I had it confirmed by England Golf that this was correct. It would also be the situation if the player had no scores since end 2017 but did already have a CONGU handicap. The Index would be set to their exact.

 

[KenL]

And playing off about 2 or 3 shots more than before, at my course they would.