rulefan
Tour Winner
I don't know. I never rated a 9 hole course where the same tees were used twice so never checked the procedure.
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
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I guess we'd probably have it near enough. A 9 hole match would be a friendly for the beers and no one cares about the odd shot due to incorrect maths.
Heresy I know, but we're there to play, not do O level maths. Although I do appreciate some on here are not interested in hitting golf balls.
Smart phones have calculators on. Jolly handy things, that can be switched off when you're playing.
rulefan
Tour Winner
The key word is "same". The 9 hole courses I am familiar with have at least one very different tee position which affects the CR and Slope.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
I would be very happy to play with you in the way you describe.
What I really dislike is the moaning, faffing and incorrect statements about the new handicap system, just before starting what should be relaxation and recreation.
Colin L
Tour Winner
I hope I've understood the situation correctly. Voyager's club had to introduce a temporary arrangement whereby if you wanted to play 18 holes you had to play round the front or the back nine twice. But being temporary, these 18 hole "courses" are not in the system and so there are no helpful charts or apps to get your 18 hole course handicap from. He would like players to calculate their 18 hole course handicaps themselves as they are not necessarily going to be twice the 9 hole one and is somewhat exercised that they don't know how to and are unwilling to try. Now, after what I've said about players not needing to know about how things work as all they need to do is look up and know their course handicap, I can only admit that my sympathy lies with their reluctance rather than with Voyager's wish for total correctness.
Which is why it makes sense to me to use the available 9 hole course handicaps and get on with what matters - playing and enjoying the golf without the fear of the world coming to an end because pragmatism has won over perfection. Playing two rounds of 9 for an 18 hole event seems to me much the same as playing two rounds of 18 for a 36-hole event.
To put it another way:
Is expecting players to look up their 9 hole handicaps reasonable?
Is expecting players to find the slope rating of the 18 holes to be played and then multiply their handicap index by the slope rating divided by 113 realistic?
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jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
For info
Our nine hole course has different tee positions but with only marginal differences on each (except for one hole) and not enough to change the par . Total distance change between each 9 is only 150 yards and 34 yards of that is taken by one hole. Slope rating one nine is 114 CR 32.6 and the other 109/31.9. The course played as an 18 is rated, slope is half the combined and CR the combined.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Rulefan refers to 9 hole courses which reminds me I meant to point out that these courses don't present the kind of problem Voyager has encountered. Being established, they will have both 9 and 18 holes in the system and course handicaps will be available to look up.
On some of them you will have exactly the same 9 holes second time round while on others, as he points out, there will be some different tees to make the second half a bit different (and possibly with different ratings).
There is an 18 hole course in Edinburgh which has a 9 hole "composite" course. That is, the 9 holes are not 1 to 9 or 10 to 18 but some sort of mixture. I expect there will be others like that?
On some of them you will have exactly the same 9 holes second time round while on others, as he points out, there will be some different tees to make the second half a bit different (and possibly with different ratings).
There is an 18 hole course in Edinburgh which has a 9 hole "composite" course. That is, the 9 holes are not 1 to 9 or 10 to 18 but some sort of mixture. I expect there will be others like that?
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
If any of you encounter this out there, playing the same nine holes twice as an 18-hole round, please remember that you can not simply double your 9-hole course handicap.
To be sure you are doing it correctly you need to have some knowledge of a tiny part of the new handicapping system. This tiny part is very easy to read and learn.
To be sure you are doing it correctly you need to have some knowledge of a tiny part of the new handicapping system. This tiny part is very easy to read and learn.
Colin L
Tour Winner
That the course handicap of a nine hole course is not necessarily half of the course handicap for an eighteen hole round comprising the nine holes played twice is not in contention. It's no doubt helpful if players understand that can be the case, but I don't agree that it is necessary for them to understand the mechanics of why that is so and feel it would be unreasonable to expect them to. All that is needed is that they know what their course handicap is for whatever course they are going to play and that information is available whether playing 9 holes or 18 holes of an 18 hole course or 9 holes or 18 holes on a 9 hole course provided the courses are rated. (Again I can only speak definitively of how it is in Scotland and assume it's the same elsewhere.)
The situation described where a club has to introduce an arrangement whereby players can only get an 18 hole round by playing the back or front nine twice is unusual and such situations often require compromises. The arrangement creates an 18 hole course that is not rated and so course handicap information is not available. The acceptable options in my view are for the club to produce the necessary CH information or for everyone to adopt the pragmatic solution of doubling the 9 hole CH.
The WHS system is set up in such a way that no-one has to do any complicated calculations and only a very few simple ones for match play formats. In my view, it would wrong in these unusual circumstances to pressure any players to know how to calculate a course handicap. There's a pragmatic solution which requires them to do no more than multiply a number by two and get on with enjoying their golf.
Just my opinion/advice.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
The arrangement creates an 18 hole course that is not rated and so course handicap information is not available.
This statement is not true.
The nine holes are rated and so going twice round is also rated.
The information for course handicaps is available, if you know where to look in the Rules Of Handicapping.
or for everyone to adopt the pragmatic solution of doubling the 9 hole CH.
How ridiculous. Everyone would have an even numbered course handicap. Just plain wrong.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Wouldn't the second time round produce exactly the same rating data? So why wouldn't double produce the 18 hole answer?
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
If a 9-hole course handicap works out at something like 4.653 then this is rounded to 5.
Such a player might find his 18-hole course handicap for twice round the same nine is something like 9.366 and this is rounded to 9.
This avoids everyone having an even numbered handicap, which would be totally ridiculous.
"I say everyone, special day today. If your course handicap is an odd number, round it up to be an even number. Its the pragmatic way to go, apparently."
rulefan
Tour Winner
I see your point.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Sorry that wasn't quite clear enough. Your temporary arrangement involving twice round the same 9 holes results in an 18 hole course that is not registered as a rated course in the WHS system and as a result the individual cannot find out their 18 hole course handicap from the usual sources. The information on how to calculate a course handicap is in the Rules of Handicapping (which, by the way, I am thoroughly conversant with) but you seem to expect players to delve into it, understand the formula for working out their CH and do the calculation? That is unrealistic and unreasonable as your fellow members seem to have demonstrated by their reactions.
It would have been a short term manageable and workable solution to a short term problem, the alternatives being untenable. The idea that it would be wrong because every player would get an even number of strokes over 18 holes is curious. What is so dreadful about that? It is possible, no matter how unlikely, that the CHs of all the players in a handicap competition are, by chance, even numbers. All the competitors in a 36-hole handicap stroke play tournament over the same course will have received an even number of strokes by the end. You could have considered your games as 18 hole tournaments comprising two 9 hole rounds. What's the difference?
If you step back from the detail and consider what mattered at the time, was it not that members should be able to get on with their golf as best as they could in this short term disturbance of the norm? And was that not best achieved by compromising, by adopting what I've grandly called a pragmatic solution but which, I admit, is really better called a fudge.
And, finally, to be clear: I'm talking only of a temporary solution to a temporary situation.
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Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
Making up something of your own, which is wrong, is not a solution.
There is a correct way to do it.
Any number of people could create their own ideas, but there is only one correct way.
This is not a problem that needs solving.
There is no short-term problem. There is a long-term rule that covers this situation so that golfers can, at all times, play an 18-hole round over the same nine holes.
Everyone doing it correctly makes sense.
Everyone being allowed to make up something of their own is nonsense.
"My way is better"
"No, my way is better"
This just leads to more disputes and moaning.
There is a correct way to do it.
Any number of people could create their own ideas, but there is only one correct way.
This is not a problem that needs solving.
There is no short-term problem. There is a long-term rule that covers this situation so that golfers can, at all times, play an 18-hole round over the same nine holes.
Everyone doing it correctly makes sense.
Everyone being allowed to make up something of their own is nonsense.
"My way is better"
"No, my way is better"
This just leads to more disputes and moaning.
AussieKB
Well-known member
Out here in OZ the WHS is loved by the high handicapper and hated by the low handicapper, it has been tweaked that many times it looks nothing like the original format.
Finally why is it called WHS when every Country has a different version ?
Finally why is it called WHS when every Country has a different version ?
rulie
Head Pro
An old saying, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee."
Foxholer
Blackballed
Probably egos/personalities.
Even the creator doesn't agree with the USGA's version
Foxholer
Blackballed
Please explain why.
Though I have my suspicions...their consistency gives them a number that means they often find it difficult to compete with inconsistent high-cappers.
wjemather
Well-known member
Many of DK's objections are rooted in an irrational hatred of "par", and have very little mathematical validity (I'd actually contest no validity given the margins for error inherent in the system).