95% Calculation to go?

[Colin L]

Complicated??

.....Sorry, rant over...

Don't apologise. It needed to be said.

The only new thing that everyone has to do to use their WHS handicap is to find out their course handicap. Working out how many strokes you get in different formats of match play isn't new. You don't need to know your playing handicap for stroke play competitions - it's your course handicap that goes on the card and the computer does the rest.

There are golfers who just want to know how to drive their handicap and how to put scores in the tank; there are golfers who want to know how the engine works. For the former and no doubt much larger group, it's as easy as it was before.

 

[SammmeBee]

Me and 3 friends played last weekend, them being very regular golfers and one a very good golfer, playing off 2. We decided to play fourball match play. I had the scorecard, so asked what everyone's handicap was. I had 3 numbers fly at me. I was obviously happy that the 2 handicapper was correct, but when the high teen handicappers quoted their figure, I had to ask whether this was course or playing. They STILL struggle to know the difference, and started quoting their Index, and what they think they played off last time. Anyway, after a short discussion, we settled on the numbers, the Playing handicaps and then determined the number of shots everyone got. After the 5th hole, which we won, we were told it was actually a half because one of the other guys had a shot. They thought they had 15 shots, not 13. It appeared they'd forgotten about the 90% after all the other discussions related to Playing Handicap on the first. I had to explain the system to them yet again.

This is not unusual, it is almost a weekly occurrence. So many golfers are simply confused as to what all the numbers are, when to apply a certain %, etc. They will simply rely on others to tell them what they are playing for. Now, maybe the the handicap authorities are OK with that, that many golfers simply have to rely on others to tell them their handicap because it is a black art to them. However, the system can certainly not claim to be simple, when after a year so many golfers are far from understanding it. The only real positive comments I've heard from regular golfers is the fact it is easy to submit general play scores, although that has nothing really to do with the system.

Just look it up on the App?

 

[Voyager EMH]

We had our back nine closed for a few weeks. We were playing the front nine only or twice round the front nine for an 18-hole game. I met nobody who had even the slightest clue how to calculate their course handicap correctly for the front nine, or twice round the front nine, and the consequent playing handicap.
The club has made no effort whatsoever to publicise the course ratings and slope ratings for each nine nor how to calculate the course handicaps for 9-holes or 18-holes over the same nine twice.
It seems many golfers are prepared to spend hours and hours playing golf, pounds and pounds having lessons, fittings and buying new clubs, but will not spend a small amount of time and no money reading and learning. And these are the people who are usually the loudest moaners about a system they know little or nothing about.
Golfers with learning difficulties. Possible new thread title?
Rant over.
No apology.

 

[Colin L]

I don't know if the England Golf app does the same , but the Scottish Golf one will show the ratings and your course handicap for the front and back nines of any Scottish course.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I don't know if the England Golf app does the same , but the Scottish Golf one will show the ratings and your course handicap for the front and back nines of any Scottish course.

I know that and you know that, but those I have played with so far this year had no idea how to convert that info to a 9-hole handicap or for 18-holes handicap over the same 9 twice-round.

 

[rulefan]

I don't know if the England Golf app does the same , but the Scottish Golf one will show the ratings and your course handicap for the front and back nines of any Scottish course.

HDID does but I'm sure the others (IG, EG) do also.

 

[Colin L]

I know that and you know that, but those I have played with so far this year had no idea how to convert that info to a 9-hole handicap or for 18-holes handicap over the same 9 twice-round.

I'm confused. The app shows your course handicap for 18 holes, the front 9 and the back 9. Nothing to calculate or convert.

This is what it shows for the white tees at my home club:

 

[Crazyface]

You may have a point. When I bring up any of the Rulesy stuff discussed on here, my regular playing partners laugh at me and say "who cares?"

I get odd looks, but quickly fire off that I like rules and that the way to learn them is to actually break one that costs you a win! Yes, I've had that one.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I'm confused. The app shows your course handicap for 18 holes, the front 9 and the back 9. Nothing to calculate or convert.

This is what it shows for the white tees at my home club:

View attachment 40751

You say you are confused, but I don't believe you are. You seem to know what you need and how to find it.

But it does not show 18 holes, twice round front nine or twice round back nine.
What if the people you are playing with just refuse to look or listen?
What if they say the app is wrong?
What if no one has a smartphone on the first tee?
These are the types of comments and moans I hear often.
Too many don't understand, make no effort to understand or can't understand.

You might get a comment like, (for a 9-hole round)
"Look, we'll keep it simple. My course handicap is 21, so I'll just take half of that 10.5 and that rounds to 11, OK?"

Then you have to explain that it might be 11, but that is not the correct method of calculation.

Nine hole course handicap = ((HI/2) x (SR/113)) + (CR-Par), then round to a whole number. (England)
I have not met anyone on the first tee this year that has the slightest clue about that one. Most do not even know about there being different slope ratings for each 9.

I said last year that it will take the average golfer 4 years to get used to this system. One year in, I think I might have underestimated.

Personally, I never take a phone out on the course. I refuse to accept that I must have one in order to play golf.
I play golf to get away from the internet.

 

[Colin L]

Well, it would be a bit embarrassing if I didn't know that I needed my 9 hole course handicap to play a 9 hole course or didn't know where to find it. My confusion was over how you could know where to find your course handicap and yet need to calculate your course handicap on the first tee .


Your fellow golfers don't need to know the different ratings for the front and back nine. They don't need to know the formula for a 9 hole handicap. They just need to know what their course handicap is , and know it before arriving on the 1st tee. That doesn't take four years to get used to. Nor should it take four years to get heads round the notion that if your nine hole course handicap is 10, for example, it is going to be 10 the first time you play the course, and would you believe, 10 the next time you play it. You could play two rounds in the morning and another two in the afternoon and the fourth time round your course handicap is going to be - and you're ahead me now - 10.

I presume your friends do accept that they need to bring their clubs and balls in order to play? Did they have difficulty pre-WHS in finding out their handicap and "bringing" it to the 1st tee? There is no difference now, but change can create all manner of reactions, and perversely inventing difficulties and creating non-existent obstacles is one of them. No-one needs to know formulae, ratings or anything complicated in order to use their handicap. Those friends who give you grief just need to look up their 9 hole handicaps remember a one or two digit number and bring it to their game.

(By the way, has your club published nine hole stroke indexes? You need that for match play and stableford.)

 

[IanM]

Nine hole course handicap = ((HI/2) x (SR/113)) + (CR-Par), then round to a whole number. (England)

I said last year that it will take the average golfer 4 years to get used to this system

I wonder if there is a connection between your two paragraphs? ?

I would never bother to put in 9 hole card for handicap, so it'll never be an issue. If the club decides to run a 9 hole comp on a summer evening, the computer will sort it out.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Well, it would be a bit embarrassing if I didn't know that I needed my 9 hole course handicap to play a 9 hole course or didn't know where to find it. My confusion was over how you could know where to find your course handicap and yet need to calculate your course handicap on the first tee .


Your fellow golfers don't need to know the different ratings for the front and back nine. They don't need to know the formula for a 9 hole handicap. They just need to know what their course handicap is , and know it before arriving on the 1st tee. That doesn't take four years to get used to. Nor should it take four years to get heads round the notion that if your nine hole course handicap is 10, for example, it is going to be 10 the first time you play the course, and would you believe, 10 the next time you play it. You could play two rounds in the morning and another two in the afternoon and the fourth time round your course handicap is going to be - and you're ahead me now - 10.

I presume your friends do accept that they need to bring their clubs and balls in order to play? Did they have difficulty pre-WHS in finding out their handicap and "bringing" it to the 1st tee? There is no difference now, but change can create all manner of reactions, and perversely inventing difficulties and creating non-existent obstacles is one of them. No-one needs to know formulae, ratings or anything complicated in order to use their handicap. Those friends who give you grief just need to look up their 9 hole handicaps remember a one or two digit number and bring it to their game.

(By the way, has your club published nine hole stroke indexes? You need that for match play and stableford.)

That doesn't take four years to get used to. - Correct. My statement referred to getting used to the system as a whole not isolated individual parts of it.

Our back nine has a course rating below par off the yellow tees and my course handicap for those 9 holes is 1.
If I play those 9 holes twice as an 18 hole round my course handicap is 1 not 2.

Twice round the same nine holes - you do not necessarily simply double your course handicap for a single 9-hole round.

I understand this because I know how the calculation works. If I did not know how the calculation works it would be very confusing.
This is why some people question whether apps are correct and don't believe what I am telling them.

Playing our normal 18 hole course off the yellows my course handicap is 3.
Playing the front nine twice as an 18-hole round my course handicap is 4.
Playing the back nine twice as an 18-hole round my course handicap is 1.

Who is confused?
Not me.

Nor should it take four years to get heads round the notion that if your nine hole course handicap is 10, for example, it is going to be 10 the first time you play the course, and would you believe, 10 the next time you play it. You could play two rounds in the morning and another two in the afternoon and the fourth time round your course handicap is going to be - and you're ahead me now - 10.

Only if all four rounds are separate 9-hole rounds. Combine twice round the same 9 holes and your course handicap might not simply be doubled to 20.

Those friends who give you grief just need to look up their 9 hole handicaps remember a one or two digit number and bring it to their game.
Since our back nine was closed recently, it was a first time experience for many to need 9-hole handicaps (and twice round the same nine) and I met no one who had made any effort to understand what was needed and why.
Now they have had that experience they have made a start to increasing their knowledge and understanding of part of the new system.
Yes you can look things up on apps etc, but you really must do some reading to get to proper grips with the system.
My frustration is why keen golfers are so reluctant to do a bit of reading about golf handicaps.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I wonder if there is a connection between your two paragraphs? ?

I would never bother to put in 9 hole card for handicap, so it'll never be an issue. If the club decides to run a 9 hole comp on a summer evening, the computer will sort it out.

Imagine you and I turn up at a course with two others for nine holes betterball matchplay.
Will you not need to know, or work out, what your 9-hole course handicap is?
What if, like me, no one is carrying a smartphone? I don't use one to play golf.

 

[BiMGuy]

Imagine you and I turn up at a course with two others for nine holes betterball matchplay.
Will you not need to know, or work out, what your 9-hole course handicap is?
What if, like me, no one is carrying a smartphone? I don't use one to play golf.

I imagine in such specific circumstances. That 3 of you turning up to play 9 holes of BB match play wasn’t a surprise to the 4 of you. So maybe you could have worked it out prior?

Especially if you know you won’t be taking your phone to work it out whilst standing on the first tee ??‍

 

[Colin L]

In my experience, a fair proportion of golfers just want to know what to do and are not looking to "get to proper grips with system". It's not necessary for their participation or for the club's management of members' golf. Is it really worth getting het up about it?

If you are looking to your fellow golfers to understand the possible outcomes of par being used in calculating nine hole course handicaps but not in calculating the course handicap made up by the two nines, you're being unrealistic . Your basic problem is that your "combined" 18 hole course doesn't exist in the system and players can't look up their course handicaps for it. The sensibly pragmatic approach is to treat each nine holes as an entity for the purpose of handicapping - sensible because players have access to the information they need. The only alternative would be for the club to produce course handicap charts for the temporary 18 hole course and that would be a misuse of time. You're talking about a temporary arrangement: the sky won't fall down if you adapt to meet the occasion.

 

[chrisd]

I imagine in such specific circumstances. That 3 of you turning up to play 9 holes of BB match play wasn’t a surprise to the 4 of you. So maybe you could have worked it out prior?

Especially if you know you won’t be taking your phone to work it out whilst standing on the first tee ??‍

My partner and I have been playing vets greensomes and foursomes recently and have worked out the handicap situation long before we play and just confirming with our opponents on arrival. It seems daft to wait until we stand on the first tee, especially if their calculations are different

 

[SammmeBee]

That doesn't take four years to get used to. - Correct. My statement referred to getting used to the system as a whole not isolated individual parts of it.

Our back nine has a course rating below par off the yellow tees and my course handicap for those 9 holes is 1.
If I play those 9 holes twice as an 18 hole round my course handicap is 1 not 2.

Twice round the same nine holes - you do not necessarily simply double your course handicap for a single 9-hole round.

I understand this because I know how the calculation works. If I did not know how the calculation works it would be very confusing.
This is why some people question whether apps are correct and don't believe what I am telling them.

Playing our normal 18 hole course off the yellows my course handicap is 3.
Playing the front nine twice as an 18-hole round my course handicap is 4.
Playing the back nine twice as an 18-hole round my course handicap is 1.

Who is confused?
Not me.

Nor should it take four years to get heads round the notion that if your nine hole course handicap is 10, for example, it is going to be 10 the first time you play the course, and would you believe, 10 the next time you play it. You could play two rounds in the morning and another two in the afternoon and the fourth time round your course handicap is going to be - and you're ahead me now - 10.

Only if all four rounds are separate 9-hole rounds. Combine twice round the same 9 holes and your course handicap might not simply be doubled to 20.

Those friends who give you grief just need to look up their 9 hole handicaps remember a one or two digit number and bring it to their game.
Since our back nine was closed recently, it was a first time experience for many to need 9-hole handicaps (and twice round the same nine) and I met no one who had made any effort to understand what was needed and why.
Now they have had that experience they have made a start to increasing their knowledge and understanding of part of the new system.
Yes you can look things up on apps etc, but you really must do some reading to get to proper grips with the system.
My frustration is why keen golfers are so reluctant to do a bit of reading about golf handicaps.

Twice round your front or back nine is not an 18 hole course though….it’s 2 rounds of 9 holes…..

 

[rulefan]

Twice round your front or back nine is not an 18 hole course though….it’s 2 rounds of 9 holes…..

Many 9 hole courses will have an 18 hole CR and Slope allocated but the/any tee position differences for each 9 will not have been sufficient to cause the two 9s to be different.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Twice round your front or back nine is not an 18 hole course though….it’s 2 rounds of 9 holes…..

 

[SammmeBee]

Many 9 hole courses will have an 18 hole CR and Slope allocated

You mean all?