400 Yard par 5s for Ladies

[Foxholer]

Again how is that going to help? if she ends up with a handicap that's higher that if it were than from the designated women's tees, how is that going to get her into elite comps where having a lower handicap which I'd imagine she would have more chance of getting elite comp ballots. We had the Curtis Cup at my club a few years ago and they didn't really use any White tees just the yellow and some of the ladies tee.

She won't end up with a higher 'handicap' though (are you sure you're not still in Pre-WHS mode?). Her HI will reflect her ability - off the course length elite Ladies golf will be played! And that length won't be any surprise to her!
Elite Ladies have got quite a bit longer than from 10 years ago - pretty much the difference between most Yellow and White tees.

 

[patricks148]

She won't end up with a higher 'handicap' though (are you sure you're not still in Pre-WHS mode?). Her HI will reflect her ability - off the course length elite Ladies golf will be played! And that length won't be any surprise to her!
Elite Ladies have got quite a bit longer than from 10 years ago - pretty much the difference between most Yellow and White tees.

So how is shooting a higher score not going to give her a higher handicap?

In the op it was stated she can reach the holes easier and includes these short par 5s, so to give an example. Our par for men is 70 and the 75 and the course rating reflects that. How isn't she going to shot lower scores off the ladies tees comp to the mens.

 

[Smiffy]

The 10th at Highwoods for the ladies is a par 3 of 144 yards.
I've seen plenty of them go at it with their drivers.
That would make a 400 yard hole a hell of a slog for them.
Driver, followed by two 3 woods I would think.
Wow.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Not really the situation. When rating, the landing zone of each shot is assessed for potential 'issues' ie obstacles like OOB or bunkers. For each shot 4 assessments/sets of measurements have to be taken and evaluated. For the drive the distances are around 250 yards for the scratch man, 210 scratch lady, 200 bogey man, 150 bogey lady. The evaluation factors are often different for men and women and of course there are another 4 assessments after the second shot etc. This adds up to a lot of extra time or extra rating teams. In addition there is all the extra checking and number crunching back at base. The explains to some extent the reluctance of some county rating teams to rate tees that will never be used for competitions.

Surely a relatively basic computer system could work that out by using Google Maps and all the other data that has been collated on the numerous systems and apps that we have readily available when we play golf. Infact, if an app can advise you which clubs to play on a smart caddie function, I'm absolutely convinced that the hole can be rated for difficulty using the same information.

"Number crunching back at base" sounds like jobs for the boys to me.

I've looked at a few slope ratings for courses I've played - and I know they aren't representative of the comparative difficulty of the courses, so I'd argue the current method is actually a bit crap and needs updating anyway.

 

[Mel Smooth]

So how is shooting a higher score not going to give her a higher handicap?

In the op it was stated she can reach the holes easier and includes these short par 5s, so to give an example. Our par for men is 70 and the 75 and the course rating reflects that. How isn't she going to shot lower scores off the ladies tees comp to the mens.

The slope rating will be higher and she would get more shots, just like if somebody who's home course has a low slope rating would get more shots playing at a course with a high slope rating. Remember, if the back tee's are rated for ladies, it will be higher slope rating than it would for men.

 

[Foxholer]

The slope rating will be higher and she would get more shots, just like if somebody who's home course has a low slope rating would get more shots playing at a course with a high slope rating. Remember, if the back tee's are rated for ladies, it will be higher slope rating than it would for men.

At Elite Ladies level, it's not the Slope rating that important - though that will be higher, probably by a lot - as that should reflect the score of a 'Bogey' (20-ish handicap) player. It's the (Ladies) Course Rating being higher, reflecting the fact that he course is simply a tougher test. No different to that between, say, Yellow and Blue at Nairn (630+yds and 3 shots higher expecttaion for Scratch (Male) players). Nairn's Red tee ratings are quite high in the first place, so maybe the concept of courses being too easy for Elite female players is hard to grasp for some!

 

[rulefan]

Surely a relatively basic computer system could work that out by using Google Maps and all the other data that has been collated on the numerous systems and apps that we have readily available when we play golf. Infact, if an app can advise you which clubs to play on a smart caddie function, I'm absolutely convinced that the hole can be rated for difficulty using the same information.

"Number crunching back at base" sounds like jobs for the boys to me.

I've looked at a few slope ratings for courses I've played - and I know they aren't representative of the comparative difficulty of the courses, so I'd argue the current method is actually a bit crap and needs updating anyway.

Who has collected all this data? How up to date and where is it? Google Maps doesn't tell you how tough the rough is, how deep the bunkers are, green speeds, the effect of tree canopies, the actual width of the fairway cut as opposed to the light rough, what are penalty areas (now that water is not the criterion) .........
The number crunching is really a glorified spread sheet but the data still has to be fed in. It could be done by the volunteer raters after they have spent the best part of the day on the course - are you one?
Slope does not and cannot measure the relative difficulty of two different courses (or different sets of tees at the same club).

 

[doublebogey7]

So how is shooting a higher score not going to give her a higher handicap?

In the op it was stated she can reach the holes easier and includes these short par 5s, so to give an example. Our par for men is 70 and the 75 and the course rating reflects that. How isn't she going to shot lower scores off the ladies tees comp to the mens.

If the whites were rated for women, then I'd wager the CR for them would be in the region of 78-82 thus giving her 3-7 shots to play with over the Reds (assuming CR of 75).

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Am I the only person who thinks that a 400 yard par 5 is demeaning for good lady golfers, my daughter plays national level golf and hits 260-280 yards off the tee leaving a flick with a wedge. This is a problem for the development of ladies game. She regularly plays off the back tees at her two clubs which are still shorter than a national level setup. All the national comps are changed to represent this i.e between 470-550 yard par 5s.

Probably yes.

Our Par 5 (9 hole) is 525yds, our Club Champ went through the back with a 2 iron + 8 iron when I played with him last year. Is that demeaning to him?

 

[The Fader]

The OP doesn't tell us what HI his daughter holds but if she is "elite" is she not likely to be somewhere near scratch?

With a driving distance of 260+ not too many courses are going to daunt her off the whites. Does it really matter if the course is not
rated for practice rounds as she should be playing against the par and can measure her success \ improvement against her gross scores?

If she has to play off the red fees in club competitions surely her HI off that measured course will reflect her greater ability against her less skilled competitors?

Sorry, but it sounds like a 1st world problem to me.

 

[Deleted member 23270]

Going back to the OP, more details on this 400 yard hole would be helpful. Is it uphill or is there a lake in front of the green?

 

[Foxholer]

...
Our Par 5 (9 hole) is 525yds, our Club Champ went through the back with a 2 iron + 8 iron when I played with him last year. Is that demeaning to him?

That's likely further than PGA Tour guys hit that combo. Downhill hole? Howling gale?

 

[Smiffy]

Our Par 5 (9 hole) is 525yds, our Club Champ went through the back with a 2 iron + 8 iron when I played with him last year. Is that demeaning to him?

No. But the animal needs locking up.
???

 

[Deleted member 30522]

No. But the animal needs locking up.
???

I'd agree

 

[Foxholer]

The OP doesn't tell us what HI his daughter holds but if she is "elite" is she not likely to be somewhere near scratch?

With a driving distance of 260+ not too many courses are going to daunt her off the whites. Does it really matter if the course is not
rated for practice rounds as she should be playing against the par and can measure her success \ improvement against her gross scores?

If she has to play off the red fees in club competitions surely her HI off that measured course will reflect her greater ability against her less skilled competitors?

Sorry, but it sounds like a 1st world problem to me.

That's not the point! The facility exists to make it a less trivial/better test, but is not being used/made available when it could relatively simply be harnessed to do so.

 

[Dandyer1995]

Am I the only person who thinks that a 400 yard par 5 is demeaning for good lady golfers, my daughter plays national level golf and hits 260-280 yards off the tee leaving a flick with a wedge. This is a problem for the development of ladies game. She regularly plays off the back tees at her two clubs which are still shorter than a national level setup. All the national comps are changed to represent this i.e between 470-550 yard par 5s.

Think its to short for her clearly but the average lady I'm sure its not. Played Sunday and saw a lady going into a par three 150 yards with a driver. nothing wrong with it as long as handicap reflects that. maybe when practicing play the shorter par 5 as a par 4 to get more of national feel. I'd imagine its got to be frustrating for her! Great problem to have though!

I don't think holes should be lengthened depending on handicap, two men in their 40's should play off the same tee's in competitions as surely this is what the handicap system is for.

I do think a forward tee however for more senior players over a certain age would be a good idea. at a club I used to be a member they changed the stroke index of a hole (150 yard par 3) from the easiest to something like 8th hardest as the seniors couldn't carry the ditch protecting the green. A forward tee there to make carrying it no problem and bringing it back to being their easiest hole would have been a better solution in my opinion.

 

[rulefan]

It should be remembered Course Rating and Slope are not only about length of shot. There are many high cappers who can reach par 5s in 2 but actually take 3 or 4 to get there and even more to get the ball in the hole. Accuracy and ability to miss obstacles play their part.
Incidentally, the USGA expectation is that a scratch woman generally hits their tee shot 210 yards and their second 190 yards. Those scratch women who accurately hit significantly further will have a corresponding deficiency in their game (eg useless chipper).
Of course, ability should really be judged relative to CR not Par. The recommendation for women's par 5s is 370 - 600 yards but 400 yards can be either depending on other factors.
Incidentally, how 'elite' is the OP's daughter?

 

[r0wly86]

Is it demeaning? Of course not, holes come in a variety of lengths and difficulties, some will be easier for better players or longer hitters. If I get a par 5 I can hit in 2 of a par 4 I can drive I don't feel demeaned and see it as a challenge in itself where I should be getting a birdie.

I agree with others about tees being ability based rather than gender, seems ridiculous that a woman who can hit 250 yards off the tee is playing 40 yards in front of the man who can drive it 180 yards. That makes no sense

 

[Whereditgo]

I like the system they use in Sweden (possibly other parts of Europe too?) where the tee's are simply marked with the course length in metres/100, so from the tee's marked 56 the course plays 5,600 metres, 62 it plays 6200 metres etc.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I like the system they use in Sweden (possibly other parts of Europe too?) where the tee's are simply marked with the course length in metres/100, so from the tee's marked 56 the course plays 5,600 metres, 62 it plays 6200 metres etc.

I only found out since WHS came in that the handicaps are difference for ladies and men, I would have thought that someone playing off a set off tees shoot 8 x 100 as their best 8, should have had the same handicap regardless of gender, then each tee set only has to be rated once, what is the reason for the difference