3 minutes to find ball

[Pin-seeker]

Rules are there for a reason, dont like them then dont play.

In a friendly knock would you still be reaching for the stop watch?

 

[Pin-seeker]

And that’s the exact sort of response I would expect from you

Rules are rules - it’s as simple as that - 3 mins to search for the ball , find it after that and it’s a lost ball - simple.

A decent human being follows the rules and has integrity towards the game and their fellow golfers - deliberately allowing a break of the rules in a Comp for example is just cheating

Have you ever done 33 in a 30 zone?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

In a friendly knock would you still be reaching for the stop watch?

I dont carry a stop watch, but yes we apply the rules when we play, whether its a board comp, medal or just a casual swindle game.

 

[Jacko_G]

Well that was another interesting read. Good enjoyment.

Bounce games, well we'll take as long as it takes and we move on (as long as nobody is being held up) it's a bounce game after all.

Competition, yip it's the 3 minute rule that is applied.

 

[Orikoru]

Rules are there for a reason, dont like them then dont play.

I don't dislike this rule, I think it was a good change. If you don't find it in 3 minutes you probably wouldn't find it in 5 so it was a good idea to speed up play. So nothing to do with not liking the rules. It's just about common decency to your fellow man/golfer. I'm just not going to be that willy who stands there with a stopwatch timing someone to the exact second and shouting the odds if they're a couple of seconds past. If they taken roughly about 3 minutes and not miles over then it's fine by me. Life is too short.

 

[Slab]

Weird timing catching up with this thread but…

All day long I’d have said, in a comp, if I categorically knew I was over 3 mins search time then that’s that and the ball’s lost (even if I’m now standing over it) Rules are rules, right? It’s important to follow the rules, right?

Or is it?

Then about an hour ago I read in a newspaper column about a widow overrunning the allotted time for a funeral service by 28 seconds. She received a £200 penalty charge as per the rules. Rules are rules, right? It’s important to follow the rules, right?

So it’s quite correct to issue the widow the penalty charge, right?
Not for me it isn't (& I'd guess not for most of you either) it seems crazy but then like in golf I didn't make this rule. The only thing I have to do is follow it, right?

It strikes me that even though one situation is clearly far more important than the other, ironically it is in the more important situation I’d actually not follow the rules or believe in the idiom ‘Rules are Rules’ And with that in mind it got me questioning just how important is it to have 100% unwavering compliance to the rules in golf? and are they only given such importance because, in the greater scheme of things, golf isn’t really important and if it isn’t really important why does it need unwavering compliance to the rules


But I settled on this... Regardless of the suitability and quality of any rule, when all is said and done its not the widows job to waive the penalty, that responsibility lies with someone else (& should have been exercised) just like it isn't the players job to waive a penalty if they knowingly overrun the search time

 

[backwoodsman]

I read the rule though and it doesn't say EXACTLY 3 minutes. It could just as easily mean approximately three minutes. It certainly doesn't suggest you time it with a timer. 3 mins and 5 seconds say is approximately 3 mins in my book, to my best estimate. So to my mind the player hasn't broken a rule.

Think you're batting on a sticky wicket with that one.

The rules are quite precise. They say a ball is lost if not found within three minutes. They don't say "roughly three", or "approximately three" or "three and a bit" or "give or take three"; just "three". Anything else is not "three".

Likewise, five minutes mean five minutes under rule 5.3a ...

 

[Bunkermagnet]

If they taken roughly about 3 minutes and not miles over then it's fine by me. Life is too short.

Do you apply the same loose ideals when it comes to dropping, teeing up or even too many clubs in the bag?
It’s not just decency to your PP as you put it, but respect to the whole field.

 

[Colin L]

I read the rule though and it doesn't say EXACTLY 3 minutes. It could just as easily mean approximately three minutes. It certainly doesn't suggest you time it with a timer. 3 mins and 5 seconds say is approximately 3 mins in my book, to my best estimate. So to my mind the player hasn't broken a rule.

That is appalling reasoning! The Definition of Lost is precise:
The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it.

If we were supposed to take this to mean in approximately three minutes, you would, surprise surprise, have read the word approximately in the Definition. But you didn't.
And why would you expect the rule book to explain how to measure 3 minutes? Most of us learned about things called clocks and watches and could tell the time before starting school.

None of my club's strokeplay competitions is refereed which I expect is the norm. In stroke play competitions at a higher level that are refereed, many searches will go on with no referee in the area and some, probably relatively few, will be timed by a referee. In all these situations, including where there is a referee, it is primarily the player's responsiblity to time his or her search and abide by this, as any other rule. If his timing is approximate but done in good faith, that seems fine. Generally speaking, you're talking about glancing at your watch when you start and keeping an eye on it from time to time - bearing in mind that you're concentrating on looking for your ball, not following the second hand on your watch. But the opposition you are reading from other contributors is, I think, to the idea that it is ok for a player knowingly to exceed the 3 minutes by "just a little". That is deliberately breaching a rule and, to put it bluntly, cheating.

My grandchildren have a much broader measurement of time than minutes and seconds. Only two sleeps before they descend upon us for their summer holiday.

 

[Orikoru]

That is appalling reasoning! The Definition of Lost is precise:
The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it.

If we were supposed to take this to mean in approximately three minutes, you would, surprise surprise, have read the word approximately in the Definition. But you didn't.
And why would you expect the rule book to explain how to measure 3 minutes? Most of us learned about things called clocks and watches and could tell the time before starting school.

None of my club's strokeplay competitions is refereed which I expect is the norm. In stroke play competitions at a higher level that are refereed, many searches will go on with no referee in the area and some, probably relatively few, will be timed by a referee. In all these situations, including where there is a referee, it is primarily the player's responsiblity to time his or her search and abide by this, as any other rule. If his timing is approximate but done in good faith, that seems fine. Generally speaking, you're talking about glancing at your watch when you start and keeping an eye on it from time to time - bearing in mind that you're concentrating on looking for your ball, not following the second hand on your watch. But the opposition you are reading from other contributors is, I think, to the idea that it is ok for a player knowingly to exceed the 3 minutes by "just a little". That is deliberately breaching a rule and, to put it bluntly, cheating.

My grandchildren have a much broader measurement of time than minutes and seconds. Only two sleeps before they descend upon us for their summer holiday.

No, I don't even wear a watch. I'm saying I'd never stand there timing someone looking for their ball, and neither has anyone else I've ever played with. If they find their ball and it feels like it was about 3 minutes and not very much longer, that's fine by me.

 

[rulefan]

No, I don't even wear a watch. I'm saying I'd never stand there timing someone looking for their ball, and neither has anyone else I've ever played with. If they find their ball and it feels like it was about 3 minutes and not very much longer, that's fine by me.

Do you play much competition golf?

 

[Tashyboy]

Weird timing catching up with this thread but…

All day long I’d have said, in a comp, if I categorically knew I was over 3 mins search time then that’s that and the ball’s lost (even if I’m now standing over it) Rules are rules, right? It’s important to follow the rules, right?

Or is it?

Then about an hour ago I read in a newspaper column about a widow overrunning the allotted time for a funeral service by 28 seconds. She received a £200 penalty charge as per the rules. Rules are rules, right? It’s important to follow the rules, right?

So it’s quite correct to issue the widow the penalty charge, right?
Not for me it isn't (& I'd guess not for most of you either) it seems crazy but then like in golf I didn't make this rule. The only thing I have to do is follow it, right?

It strikes me that even though one situation is clearly far more important than the other, ironically it is in the more important situation I’d actually not follow the rules or believe in the idiom ‘Rules are Rules’ And with that in mind it got me questioning just how important is it to have 100% unwavering compliance to the rules in golf? and are they only given such importance because, in the greater scheme of things, golf isn’t really important and if it isn’t really important why does it need unwavering compliance to the rules


But I settled on this... Regardless of the suitability and quality of any rule, when all is said and done its not the widows job to waive the penalty, that responsibility lies with someone else (& should have been exercised) just like it isn't the players job to waive a penalty if they knowingly overrun the search time

This is a good read. And although the opening post had been answered. The three min rule is still ? questionable/not questionable. Happy remember saying you should play a provisional. Coz we thought it was about three mins. Within seconds when walking back. Said ball is found. Do you play it or not. For us four. Common sense said play it. Even if it had been an horrendous lie. And seeing as it wasn't found in seconds. The chance was it was a horrible lie.

 

[bobmac]

Do you play much competition golf?

I played lots of competition golf and I agree with Orik. I also never wore a watch so never timed anyone.
To time someone to exactly 3 minutes as you seem to suggest everyone should do, you would need to know exactly when they started looking which in many cases is impractical at best.

 

[Orikoru]

Do you play much competition golf?

Yeah, plenty.

What happens in every round of golf I've played, be that in comps over the last two and a half years, or social rounds, when someone can't immediately find their ball is this. They start looking for it, I'll help them look if I'm not able to take my own shot in the meantime. I'll keep helping them until they give up on it basically. They'll maybe say something like "oh well, I think that's been about 3 minutes", and we'll concur and that's that. We don't really know if it's been 2 minutes or 4, it's just a best estimate on their part. I would never say "right your 3 minutes is up! back to the tee for you!". If they were really taking the mick and had obviously been looking for too long, I'd maybe say for them "I think it's been 3 minutes" to kind of gently lean them towards giving up.

Before they changed the rule from 5 minutes, this process was exactly the same really, except people tend to give up a bit quicker now as they are acutely aware the rule has changed to 3, that's all. In all this time I have never once played with anyone who timed me or anyone else in the group for a ball search and started dictating to them that they'd run out of time, and if anyone did do that, I'd think they were a bit of an officious knob to be honest.

My point being, it's not just my personal view on this rule, this is how it always seems to work in all the circles of golf I play in. And if that's just my club's members that are like that and others aren't, then I'm happy in the knowledge that I'm at the right club for me.

 

[Orikoru]

This is a good read. And although the opening post had been answered. The three min rule is still ? questionable/not questionable. Happy remember saying you should play a provisional. Coz we thought it was about three mins. Within seconds when walking back. Said ball is found. Do you play it or not. For us four. Common sense said play it. Even if it had been an horrendous lie. And seeing as it wasn't found in seconds. The chance was it was a horrible lie.

With regards to my above post, if that situation happened in any of my groups, then nobody would be able to say you definitely used up your 3 minutes already, so you would most likely get the benefit of the doubt and be able to play the found ball, to the satisfaction of everyone in the group. It could have been 3:15 or it could have been 2:45, nobody's going to say you have to go all the way back to the tee for that.

 

[Jacko_G]

With regards to my above post, if that situation happened in any of my groups, then nobody would be able to say you definitely used up your 3 minutes already, so you would most likely get the benefit of the doubt and be able to play the found ball, to the satisfaction of everyone in the group. It could have been 3:15 or it could have been 2:45, nobody's going to say you have to go all the way back to the tee for that.

I personally think that is the way most groups up and down the country will do it.

I've also never had a look at my watch, never played with anyone who has a timer and also come to the general conclusion that time is up amongst the group, and as you say its usually the honesty of the person who's ball we are looking for that will say time is up.

 

[duncan mackie]

I personally think that is the way most groups up and down the country will do it.

I've also never had a look at my watch, never played with anyone who has a timer and also come to the general conclusion that time is up amongst the group, and as you say its usually the honesty of the person who's ball we are looking for that will say time is up.

I don't think theres anyone who would disagree with what you have written (although I would suggest that there are more people out there with timers -watches- than you suggest!) Personally I took my watch off when i retired and added the stopwatch to the bag when it became clesr that people were struggling with the concept of 3min but I don't generally stand around clutching it during searches.
Where the thread diverged was when someone specifically stated that it didn't matter if someone spent a bit longer (fact not estimation) and then started to justify that stance by suggesting the rules don't even mean 3min because they don't include the word exactly.

 

[Orikoru]

I don't think theres anyone who would disagree with what you have written (although I would suggest that there are more people out there with timers -watches- than you suggest!) Personally I took my watch off when i retired and added the stopwatch to the bag when it became clesr that people were struggling with the concept of 3min but I don't generally stand around clutching it during searches.
Where the thread diverged was when someone specifically stated that it didn't matter if someone spent a bit longer (fact not estimation) and then started to justify that stance by suggesting the rules don't even mean 3min because they don't include the word exactly.

I only meant to suggest how it is interpreted and carried out in every-day rounds of golf. Certainly in all my rounds of golf. If someone else was timing them and they were 5 seconds over, yeah I'd probably let them off, but presumably the feller who bothered to time it to the exact second wouldn't do anyway.

 

[rulefan]

The problem arises for a referee when the player starts the search and the player, his caddy or another player asks how is he doing for time. If you haven't got your watch going you get a rollicking. If you have and say 1 minute or whatever it is and warn the player at the 10 second mark or if you call that or full time too soon or too late, you can almost guarantee someone will complain. I am finding that players are more time conscious about 3 minutes than 5. Previously players would give up after 2-3 minutes.
I have a full screen digital display on my phone and show the searching player whenever he is near me. If I am late to the scene I agree with the player to add x seconds.

 

[chrisd]

When I've potentially lost a ball I've started timing my search with a look at my watch at the start.