chrisd
Major Champion
2 weeks ago I played a 4bbb match where one of the guys looked for at least 10 minutes and found and played his ball
3 minutes to find ball
- Thread starter berniethebolt
- Start date
2 weeks ago I played a 4bbb match where one of the guys looked for at least 10 minutes and found and played his ball
Colin L
Tour Winner
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Forum, I have a contrite admission, a humble apology and a heartfelt pledge to do better to make.
The admission is that I have misled you all throughout this thread by saying that a Definition which states that lost is the status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it means that after searching for your ball unsuccessfully for 3 minutes, a finite and precise time, your ball is lost and that if you then find it and play it you have played a wrong ball. What I had overlooked until helped by a number of contributions to this discussion was that this only applied to those nerds who are unusually equipped with the means of measuring 3 minutes and who are prepared to take the trouble to use these rare timing machines because they fondly believe that avoiding a breach of the Rules by playing a wrong ball really matters when in fact it is of course a tiny and unimportant loose thread in the warp of life, a life which they really ought to go out and get.
I have been brought to my senses and now realise that for the vast majority - 90% or even more - timing a search is far too anal an activity to be bothered with and that it is just fine to have a look for your ball for as long as you feel is ok and if that is nearly four minutes, so be it. Life is too short to stuff mushrooms or worry about details like what exactly does 3 minutes mean. It was laughably naive of me to accept so uncritically the notion that playing a ball found after 3 minutes was playing a wrong ball when in fact the ball wasn’t lost at all if neither the player nor anyone else knew the search had gone over time. Here I was propagating the absurd notion that the passage of 3 minutes was a matter of fact. I am deeply grateful for the opportunity opened up to consider the arboreal metaphysics of golf rules and have my eyes opened to the world in which a breach of the rules only occurs if someone notices it. I now appreciate that should TV cameras pick up a moment when, say, a player shifted some sand with his backswing in a bunker but no-one including him noticed, that breach of the rules did not happen at the time when it happened, but only happened when a sharp-eyed technician who happened to be a golfer spotted it happening a few hours later on a replay whereas when the same incident happened without TV cameras around, it not only did not happen when it happened, but it never happened at all. For this insight, I am truly grateful.
I do humbly apologise to all for allowing such a stubbornly and dully physical concept of life and such a literal reading of the actual words in the rules to influence my judgment in this way.
I solemnly pledge to open my mind to the exciting prospects ahead of me in this brave new world of metaphysical golf rules.
In conclusion, I have rewritten the Definition to keep myself reminded of what it really means:
LOST
The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it.
Exception:
If the player can’t bother his backside to time the 3 minutes and therefore does not know when the time is up, his ball may be found after the time has elapsed and the player has the discretion to decide whether it is in play or not.
The admission is that I have misled you all throughout this thread by saying that a Definition which states that lost is the status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it means that after searching for your ball unsuccessfully for 3 minutes, a finite and precise time, your ball is lost and that if you then find it and play it you have played a wrong ball. What I had overlooked until helped by a number of contributions to this discussion was that this only applied to those nerds who are unusually equipped with the means of measuring 3 minutes and who are prepared to take the trouble to use these rare timing machines because they fondly believe that avoiding a breach of the Rules by playing a wrong ball really matters when in fact it is of course a tiny and unimportant loose thread in the warp of life, a life which they really ought to go out and get.
I have been brought to my senses and now realise that for the vast majority - 90% or even more - timing a search is far too anal an activity to be bothered with and that it is just fine to have a look for your ball for as long as you feel is ok and if that is nearly four minutes, so be it. Life is too short to stuff mushrooms or worry about details like what exactly does 3 minutes mean. It was laughably naive of me to accept so uncritically the notion that playing a ball found after 3 minutes was playing a wrong ball when in fact the ball wasn’t lost at all if neither the player nor anyone else knew the search had gone over time. Here I was propagating the absurd notion that the passage of 3 minutes was a matter of fact. I am deeply grateful for the opportunity opened up to consider the arboreal metaphysics of golf rules and have my eyes opened to the world in which a breach of the rules only occurs if someone notices it. I now appreciate that should TV cameras pick up a moment when, say, a player shifted some sand with his backswing in a bunker but no-one including him noticed, that breach of the rules did not happen at the time when it happened, but only happened when a sharp-eyed technician who happened to be a golfer spotted it happening a few hours later on a replay whereas when the same incident happened without TV cameras around, it not only did not happen when it happened, but it never happened at all. For this insight, I am truly grateful.
I do humbly apologise to all for allowing such a stubbornly and dully physical concept of life and such a literal reading of the actual words in the rules to influence my judgment in this way.
I solemnly pledge to open my mind to the exciting prospects ahead of me in this brave new world of metaphysical golf rules.
In conclusion, I have rewritten the Definition to keep myself reminded of what it really means:
LOST
The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it.
Exception:
If the player can’t bother his backside to time the 3 minutes and therefore does not know when the time is up, his ball may be found after the time has elapsed and the player has the discretion to decide whether it is in play or not.
rulefan
Tour Winner
It's probably why such a format is not recognised by the Ruling Bodies.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
How'd you let him get away with that? Couldn't you get your egg timer ready?
Well there's no need to have a strop is there? Someone's a bit precious.
Wolf
Well-known member
Bit of a pathetic response really and. Is nothing but someone throwing their toys out of their pram because they can't accept not everyone is pedantic enough to walk around with a stop watch..
I get your big on rules but to assume everyone else is disregarding them with such a pathetic reply and assuming others are cheats is a joke.
I don't have an issue with someone timing me, I do take issue with people being assumed to be cheating because they don't wear a watch or get out their old nans egg timer.
chrisd
Major Champion
Well there's no need to have a strop is there? Someone's a bit precious.
I think Colin has every need. This section, as I've said before, is a Rules section and you (and a few others) have effectively said that adherence to the rules of golf is not critical when playing and have made it clear that, in the case of timing searches, that the requirement to be governed by a specific time is being flouted by you and your fellow players. Can you seriously expect a top rules expert to give his advice and then, effectively, be told he's wrong ?
Wolf
Well-known member
Then that guy is a complete dick..
But would ask did you pull him up on it, I would have.
chrisd
Major Champion
No I didnt but the circumstances didnt require me to
Wolf
Well-known member
Except nobody has told him he's wrong. Nobody has said its a bad rule and nobodybhas said they're going to or want to break it. They've merely said they don't have devices that measure the time on them. That's a far cry from being told he's wrong.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I've only told you, and him, what happens on most golf courses. I'm just the doctor, I don't make the needles sharp.
chrisd
Major Champion
I dont think that Colin takes that view and neither do I, his strop, as its been called, is imo precisely because people go on a course knowing its likely they will be required to ACCURATELY measure the search time and are happy that they dont carry the means to do it and will turn a blind eye to those who may have exceeded the allowed time
chrisd
Major Champion
Sorry, you know it happens on most golf courses but you dont allow it in your competition play in the group you're in?
Wolf
Well-known member
But then to be taking it as a view to then respond in such a childish manner for a rules official is worse because isn't he supposed to deal in facts and the fact is nobody has told him he is wrong. Nobody has said they will knowingly flount or turn a blind eye, they've merely described it how it occurs ar golf courses up and down the land. I can guarantee it happens at your course, mine, Orikorus. And even Colins.
I agree it should be 3 minutes and that it's a good rule change but and here's the thing even measuring that time is not always accurate. Say I use my phone I look at its 337pm I stop my search at 340pm. But that could have been 2 mins or nearer to 4, depending on where in the minute the time was when I began. Its still possible to be ambiguous with it. That's all that has been pointed out here.
Also and this is purely devil's advocate we all all know the rule we all have the real definition and the pathetic one. But where does it say in that rule and definition it must be timed with a timing device.. It doesn't it just states the duration.
I agree it should be 3 minutes and that it's a good rule change but and here's the thing even measuring that time is not always accurate. Say I use my phone I look at its 337pm I stop my search at 340pm. But that could have been 2 mins or nearer to 4, depending on where in the minute the time was when I began. Its still possible to be ambiguous with it. That's all that has been pointed out here.
Also and this is purely devil's advocate we all all know the rule we all have the real definition and the pathetic one. But where does it say in that rule and definition it must be timed with a timing device.. It doesn't it just states the duration.
chrisd
Major Champion
It may be that you are the doctor after all 😣
backwoodsman
Tour Winner
In reading the thread, I'm just surprised at how many people think they can (or think they do) regularly, and reasonably accurately, determine the passage of 3 minutes without recourse to any kind of watch, clock or other timing device? I'd bet that those who think they do, don't.
But that of course is different to the argument of whether that is good enough for the standard we play at.
But that of course is different to the argument of whether that is good enough for the standard we play at.
robinthehood
Hacker
I find it hard to believe that in the 21st century most golfers don't have access to timer of some sort out on the course. A phone, GPS watch, a normal watch.....
No one's expecting you to do a grand prix style lights out start for a ball search but it really isn't a lot to expect people to make an effort to get this rule right.
No one's expecting you to do a grand prix style lights out start for a ball search but it really isn't a lot to expect people to make an effort to get this rule right.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Don't anyone take a litlle bit of self-indulgence in ironic writing as a strop. I don't do strops - waste of time and energy.
If anyone got just a little smile out of it, it served its purpose.
If anyone got just a little smile out of it, it served its purpose.
Wolf
Well-known member
It's not that hard at all to believe really. I don't own a watch normal or GPS. I turn my phone off when playing golf to prevent unwanted distractions of calls or texts. My GPS I do have doesn't have time on it when in map mode. Thats just me as an example.
Use my dad as another doesn't wear a watch, doesn't use a mobile phone and uses a lazer for distances.
I get your point as general rule of thumb but it is perfectly possible and feasible to be on a golf course without a timer
chrisd
Major Champion
I guess that when they made the maximum time allowed to search that they assumed the players were bright enough to work out that a watch etc could prove useful, and not as Orikoru has said that he'll wait for the player to say "oh well, I give up, that's probably 3 minutes done anyway" would not be the standard practice
Wolf
Well-known member
But aren't the rules there to help prevent assumptions being made.
Yet whether you agree with Orikoru or not, what he states as standard practice, is most likely the norm at the majority of golf clubs.
Edit: as an example this year I've probably played with around 30-40 different people in varying rounds comp, club match, social etc. In this rounds at some point invariably someone has had to look for a ball. Not one of those people has ever got out a timing device to time a search. Arguably perhaps say 20% wear a watch and may glance at it. That would still leave the majority doing exactly what Orikoru is describing. Are we to say they're all cheats then by definition.
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