15 clubs in your opponents bag, what to do?

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I get around this by letting my mate who only uses 12 clubs carry my driver for me and I just "borrow" it when required - means I can carry an extra wedge.

Allowed under rule 4-4b - interesting one that - never thought of making use of it when playing a 'pairs' comp

 

[bladeplayer]

Well this got a little out of hand yesterday didn't it and frankly I find the persecution of Hovis a little disappointing. Hovis has in the past broken a rule, that much is clear. He thought, having been told by someone who he trusted, that what he was doing was within the rules, he now knows better.

What has followed from this, suggesting he goes to the competition secretary and admits his mistakes is just a little daft, not because it isn't the right thing to do, but because it is absolutely impossible for Hovis to know when in the last however long he has been doing this that he has broken this rule. He has stated that he "often" does this, not "always" and he has also stated that he doesn't go to the range before qualifiers so probably hasn't done this in a comp. In order to own up to his mistake, he has to be certain when he made the mistake and when the mistake occurred and I doubt he can be.

Going to the competition secretary and saying "at some point in the last 5 years I may have been carrying more than 14 clubs. I did tell my FCs before the start of play and I thought this was OK but I can't say for certain which competitions I did this in" will probably be met with the response "thanks for telling us, but as you can't be sure, just make sure you don't do it again". End of.



Yes we should follow the rules, and Hovis thought he was, but suggesting he retrospectively hands back all his winnings\prizes just doesn't make any sense.

Mike your fast becoming the rock of sense on here ,

the fact as highlighted above that he has told FC & they didnt know either so it seems loadsa people didnt/dont know ...

P.s the sooner all the forum gets back to being helpful and its supportive instead of being ready to jump on someone who admitted they made a mistake the better ,
if i was new on here or just a lurker id be afraid to ask a question on what id just done in case i got torn apart ..
I dont know all the rules dont think i ever will but ive learned here from help and understanding of other forumers in a polite & nice way .. lets keep it that way , yeah ?

 

[chrisd]

Surely as a referee you would know all about the rules.....

I wouldn't bother, Id just post on here for you to tell me!

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

Someone else asked the question earlier but I haven't seen a reply from Hovis so I will ask again, why would you be using 2 old clubs on the range that you would never use on the course? There may be a valid reason but I cannot think of one.

 

[hovis]

Someone else asked the question earlier but I haven't seen a reply from Hovis so I will ask again, why would you be using 2 old clubs on the range that you would never use on the course? There may be a valid reason but I cannot think of one.

See post 158

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

Ok. Thanks for that.

 

[rosecott]

I get around this by letting my mate who only uses 12 clubs carry my driver for me and I just "borrow" it when required - means I can carry an extra wedge.

Allowed under rule 4-4b - interesting one that - never thought of making use of it when playing a 'pairs' comp

I did not read L's post as his mate being a partner rather than a fellow competitor - and if he was a partner, they had 13 clubs too many!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I did not read L's post as his mate being a partner rather than a fellow competitor - and if he was a partner, they had 13 clubs too many!

The rule 4-4b says in a pairing you can share clubs so long as any partner using the other's club does not personally exceed 14 clubs (he won;t be able to temporarily 'give away' a club if he was carrying 14 to start with). Of course this implies that as one of my 14 clubs I could carry a left handed 7i (say) for my use and if my playing partner only carries 13 he can use my LH club if he needs to.

That seems allowable but I've never considered doing it and it seems a bit 'dodgy-though-legal'

 

[Foxholer]

The rule 4-4b says in a pairing you can share clubs so long as any partner using the other's club does not personally exceed 14 clubs (he won;t be able to temporarily 'give away' a club if he was carrying 14 to start with). Of course this implies that as one of my 14 clubs I could carry a left handed 7i (say) for my use and if my playing partner only carries 13 he can use my LH club if he needs to.

That seems allowable but I've never considered doing it and it seems a bit 'dodgy-though-legal'

You've missed the (subtle?) bit of the Rule! And of Rosecott's reply.

If you share, total clubs of both Partners cannot exceed 14.

So if he (only) carries 13 and you wish to share, you are only allowed 1!

 

[delc]

Oh dear!!! I managed to turn up at the 1st tee with 15 clubs in my bag myself yesterday. I did realize this before I teed off, as I had been trying out a couple of different wedges from my collection of the things and forget to take one out. However there was a queue of players waiting to tee off behind us, so my playing partners said carry on, rather than running back to the clubhouse to leave the excess one in a locker. It was only a friendly round, not a comp btw.

P.S. Unlike Ian Woosnam, I was not prepared to throw an expensive club into the bushes!

 

[DAVEYBOY]

Well this got a little out of hand yesterday didn't it and frankly I find the persecution of Hovis a little disappointing. Hovis has in the past broken a rule, that much is clear. He thought, having been told by someone who he trusted, that what he was doing was within the rules, he now knows better.

What has followed from this, suggesting he goes to the competition secretary and admits his mistakes is just a little daft, not because it isn't the right thing to do, but because it is absolutely impossible for Hovis to know when in the last however long he has been doing this that he has broken this rule. He has stated that he "often" does this, not "always" and he has also stated that he doesn't go to the range before qualifiers so probably hasn't done this in a comp. In order to own up to his mistake, he has to be certain when he made the mistake and when the mistake occurred and I doubt he can be.

Going to the competition secretary and saying "at some point in the last 5 years I may have been carrying more than 14 clubs. I did tell my FCs before the start of play and I thought this was OK but I can't say for certain which competitions I did this in" will probably be met with the response "thanks for telling us, but as you can't be sure, just make sure you don't do it again". End of.

For bounce games, I'm sure if Hovis went to his PPs\group and said "guys, you know I sometimes tell you on the first tee that I have too many clubs but don't intend to use 2 of them? Well, I have just found out that is against the rules and I may have won some money from you guys over the last 5 years but I don't know for sure when it was and how much I won". I'm pretty sure this would be met with the response "don't worry about it, good of you to fess up but you know now.", at least that would be my response.

Yes we should follow the rules, and Hovis thought he was, but suggesting he retrospectively hands back all his winnings\prizes just doesn't make any sense.

Post of the week :thup:

 

[C&R]

Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.

Have too agree 100%. I would play golf with you all day long

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You've missed the (subtle?) bit of the Rule! And of Rosecott's reply.

If you share, total clubs of both Partners cannot exceed 14.

So if he (only) carries 13 and you wish to share, you are only allowed 1!

Ooops - just read the rule carefully (there's a problem for us for a start - not reading the rules carefully) - it sounded all wrong.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Have too agree 100%. I would play golf with you all day long

YOu get into hot water with getting into such as 'sporting' and 'spirit of the game' subjective assessments of rule use and breaking. There have been many such discussions on this forum over the short time I have lived here. For instance some time ago I raised how we could be clever - for some read 'not in spirit of game' - in our use of the Stroke and Distance rule.

Just play to the rules as the are written, and let's not try and be too smart about trying to circumvent them. With the rules we are all in the same boat.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.
Have too agree 100%. I would play golf with you all day long

Have too agree 100%. I would play golf with you all day long

Ignoring rules, for whatever reason, is a dangerous thing. Firstly, it means that not everyone is playing to the same ones, and secondly, over time, it leads people to believe they can pick and choose the rules they adhere to.

The rules are there for a reason, they don't allow for compassion or our own beliefs and it isn't for us to try to interpret them in a different way to suit us or to ignore certain one's that we don't agree with.

If everyone plays to the rules then there isn't a problem.

 

[Foxholer]

If I was playing against you I would have done the same thing.
It is a gentleman's game and it would be very unfair of being accused of not being a gentleman because you invoked the correct use of the rules.

Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.

In a bounce game, where Rules of Golf rarely fully apply, I'd certainly say 'Don't worry about it, just don't use them'.

But in a match, I'd say '(Sorry but) thems the rules!'. To do otherwise would be waiving a Rule, the penalty for that being both DQ-ed! And in a comp, I'd definitely simply state the penalty - because I'm acting for the entire field. In neither case would that mean I didn't feel compassion for the 'offender'.

As for 'Gentleman's game', or 'unsporting', well those are very subjective terms and Golf's (self policing) adherence to the Rules, both in Amateur and Professional ranks, is what I believe makes it so. Cricket, though rather changed in recent Professional times, still has some 'gentlemanly' rules and conventions that I applaud. Was it 'unsporting' to penalise Elis Christie for 'not finishing' one of her races? Or DQ-ing relay teams for changing the baton out of zone, or a sprinter for stepping into a vacant lane? All unfortunate, but all simply applying Rules.

That doesn't mean that there's no room for 'sporting' behaviour in Golf - Nicklaus's concession to Jacklin being the perfect example.

Your gesture of deliberately forfeiting the next 2 holes is also something I wouldn't do. To use your example, would you do the same if you realised that by doing so you would cost your team the win?

I'd feel like an idiot. I wouldn't feel hard done by - I'd understand that I broke the rules and that I incurred a penalty under those rules. There is no wriggle room, it's not a matter of compassion.

Everybody knows the 14 club limit and everyone knows there's a penalty if you breach it. Nobody should feel aggrieved about being penalised if they do breach it.

That's a much more succint way of putting it!

As it was Matchplay I would say don't worry about it and continue the game, although I'm now not sure if this would see us both DQ?

As you are agreeing to waive a rule, then yes it does mean both DQ-ed.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ignoring rules, for whatever reason, is a dangerous thing. Firstly, it means that not everyone is playing to the same ones, and secondly, over time, it leads people to believe they can pick and choose the rules they adhere to.

The rules are there for a reason, they don't allow for compassion or our own beliefs and it isn't for us to try to interpret them in a different way to suit us or to ignore certain one's that we don't agree with.

If everyone plays to the rules then there isn't a problem.

...and if a group start to 'waive' or 'reinterpret' certain rules to and for their own purposes - these interpretations start to evolve from casual 'local' agreements - to the norm. New players to the group do not realise the origins of the 'interpretation' and so take it as the rule. And so they when playing with others who do know know - spread the interpretation. And so we find ourselves getting into the sort of messes we find ourselves in today where complete misunderstanding and incorrect interpretations of rules abound.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

...and if a group start to 'waive' or 'reinterpret' certain rules to and for their own purposes - these interpretations start to evolve from casual 'local' agreements - to the norm. New players to the group do not realise the origins of the 'interpretation' and so take it as the rule. And so they when playing with others who do know know - spread the interpretation. And so we find ourselves getting into the sort of messes we find ourselves in today where complete misunderstanding and incorrect interpretations of rules abound.

Indeed :thup: