ger147
Tour Winner
Especially as you're not allowed to ask a FC what club he has just played a shot with.
15 clubs in your opponents bag, what to do?
- Thread starter EarCat
- Start date
Especially as you're not allowed to ask a FC what club he has just played a shot with.
It is a rule and no it shouldn't be broken but I'm sure we will all agree that there are rules being broken that give players huge advantages and most probably in every comp we enter. The game is jam packed with cheats and unfortunately we can't do a lot about it unless we are paired up with them and catch them doing so.
I only played in 4 comps last season but after seeing and hearing a few things I decided very early on that I will not be entering weeky comps to beat the field but solely for the purpose of beating myself and lowering my HCP. In Bigger comps like race to the Brabazon that the Belfry do on the other hand I will try to beat the field and the cheats that come with it.
I only played in 4 comps last season but after seeing and hearing a few things I decided very early on that I will not be entering weeky comps to beat the field but solely for the purpose of beating myself and lowering my HCP. In Bigger comps like race to the Brabazon that the Belfry do on the other hand I will try to beat the field and the cheats that come with it.
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D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Sorry it maybe harsh but it would be a penalty if in a qualifying comp
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
In what camp ? The one that follows the rules ?
Sorry didnt realise following the rules of golf was sneered upon
hovis
Tour Winner
Im suprised to even enjoy the game.
Stuey01
Journeyman Pro
Same thing that stops me from leather wedging it to a better lie when my FC's back is turned.
I'm not getting involved in the debate that's raging in this thread. Just don't really get this particular rule. I also understand how someone could misinterpret it, I have myself, though thankfully only in a friendly game.
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D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
The problem is not everyone is like that unfortunatly
Stuey01
Journeyman Pro
Maybe, but if someone is going to cheat, then they are going to cheat, and using a 15th club that they previously declared out of play is probably the least of your worries.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Oh I know - but at the very least eliminate the temptation and risk
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
Foxholer
Blackballed
Well, that was a fun read!
FWIW.
@Hovis. You broke the rule, but as all the comps are closed, you've 'got away with it'. You might consider passing any prizes back, but I don't believe it's obligatory. Make sure you only have 14 clubs in the bag in future - and don't trust what Pros tell you about the Rules.
@LPPhil I think you screwed up stating Hovis he needed to DQ himself from the closed comps, but otherwise your integrity is fine. I'd also give back the prize. You can't DQ yourself though. That's for the Committee to do, but it should do so - even after the comp is closed - under 34-1b(iii) if the 'miscount' was because he 'returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule 6-6d) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred'.
@Homer Stop sniping! The bitterness it displays does you no credit!
@Alanxyz Tough for a player to 'break a Rule' after the comp is closed. And, if 34-1-b(iii) applies, Committee DQs LPPhil, but not Hovis.
As for the £20 match. I believe it depends where the players were when the extra club(s) were discovered. If they have not left the 18th Green, then Match Result hasn't been 'posted', even if they have shaken hands, so the Penalty applies. If they have (collected their clubs and) left the 18th Green, then the Match Result is 'posted' and no Penalty. That of course means that if LPPhil subsequently discovers that spare Putter, no Penalty. I'd think he should buy the first couple of rounds though!
There is no moral dilemna about gaining an advantage by following the Rules. There certainly is, even if there is 'no harm' or you don't gain an advantage, if you don't follow the Rules. And as LPPhil states, that means ANY Rule.
Oh and forgot this one!
@palindromicbob IDGAFWYTE! :ears: :rofl:
FWIW.
@Hovis. You broke the rule, but as all the comps are closed, you've 'got away with it'. You might consider passing any prizes back, but I don't believe it's obligatory. Make sure you only have 14 clubs in the bag in future - and don't trust what Pros tell you about the Rules.
@LPPhil I think you screwed up stating Hovis he needed to DQ himself from the closed comps, but otherwise your integrity is fine. I'd also give back the prize. You can't DQ yourself though. That's for the Committee to do, but it should do so - even after the comp is closed - under 34-1b(iii) if the 'miscount' was because he 'returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule 6-6d) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred'.
@Homer Stop sniping! The bitterness it displays does you no credit!
@Alanxyz Tough for a player to 'break a Rule' after the comp is closed. And, if 34-1-b(iii) applies, Committee DQs LPPhil, but not Hovis.
As for the £20 match. I believe it depends where the players were when the extra club(s) were discovered. If they have not left the 18th Green, then Match Result hasn't been 'posted', even if they have shaken hands, so the Penalty applies. If they have (collected their clubs and) left the 18th Green, then the Match Result is 'posted' and no Penalty. That of course means that if LPPhil subsequently discovers that spare Putter, no Penalty. I'd think he should buy the first couple of rounds though!
There is no moral dilemna about gaining an advantage by following the Rules. There certainly is, even if there is 'no harm' or you don't gain an advantage, if you don't follow the Rules. And as LPPhil states, that means ANY Rule.
Oh and forgot this one!
@palindromicbob IDGAFWYTE! :ears: :rofl:
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backwoodsman
Tour Winner
Allanxyz
Head Pro
It's pretty much impossible to know all the rules and the pros who do this for a living make mistakes and often have to ask advice... I'm pretty sure most people out there think they are playing by the rule, even if it's not technically always the case.
It's a hobby, a good understanding of the rules should be there but if you've been told by a pro about a certain rule incorrectly and it gives you no advantage then I don't see this as a massive problem... As long as you change your behaviour once you find out the rule is incorrect.
It's a hobby, a good understanding of the rules should be there but if you've been told by a pro about a certain rule incorrectly and it gives you no advantage then I don't see this as a massive problem... As long as you change your behaviour once you find out the rule is incorrect.
chrisd
Major Champion
To be fair though, holier than thou we all are, and quite a Rules man I am, but I didn't know that declaring an extra club before the round and not using it is still a penalty! I have told playing partners that I've got an extra club in bounce games a few times after coming from the range and wouldn't have ever thought to check the rules as I knew you could declare the extra club, shows that we don't, and can't know everything!
G
guest100718
Guest
Surely as a referee you would know all about the rules.....
Allanxyz
Head Pro
Quite agree... imagine someone could view back all our qualifiers over our lifetimes and looked at it from a rules point of view, apart from a fair few bad shots they'd see... I'm pretty confident most, if not all, would have unknowingly broken the rules at some point...
It happens, we should take reasonable steps to avoid it, but I'm not going to be studying the rule book daily that's for sure.
rosecott
Money List Winner
I couldn't make up my mind if he was joking or not but, in case he was serious:
4-4. Maximum of Fourteen Clubs
a. Selection and Addition of Clubs
The player must not start a stipulated round with more than fourteen clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round, except that if he started with fewer than fourteen clubs, he may add any number, provided his total number does not exceed fourteen.
The addition of a club or clubs must not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7) and the player must not add or borrow any club selected for play by any other person playing on the course or by assembling components carried by or for the player during the stipulated round.
4-4a/16
Status of Additional Clubs Being Carried for Player and of Person Carrying Them
Q.A player begins his stipulated round with ten clubs carried by his caddie. The player has also asked another person to walk along with the group and carry eight more clubs. During the round, the player intends to add from the clubs carried by the other person. Is such an arrangement permissible?
A.No. As the player intends to add from such clubs during the round, the eight clubs count towards his total. The player is, therefore, in breach of Rule 4-4a for starting the stipulated round with more than 14 clubs. In addition, the other person is acting as a second caddie in breach of Rule 6-4.
As different acts have resulted in two Rules being breached, multiple penalties would apply (see Principle 5 of Decision 1-4/12).
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
Well this got a little out of hand yesterday didn't it and frankly I find the persecution of Hovis a little disappointing. Hovis has in the past broken a rule, that much is clear. He thought, having been told by someone who he trusted, that what he was doing was within the rules, he now knows better.
What has followed from this, suggesting he goes to the competition secretary and admits his mistakes is just a little daft, not because it isn't the right thing to do, but because it is absolutely impossible for Hovis to know when in the last however long he has been doing this that he has broken this rule. He has stated that he "often" does this, not "always" and he has also stated that he doesn't go to the range before qualifiers so probably hasn't done this in a comp. In order to own up to his mistake, he has to be certain when he made the mistake and when the mistake occurred and I doubt he can be.
Going to the competition secretary and saying "at some point in the last 5 years I may have been carrying more than 14 clubs. I did tell my FCs before the start of play and I thought this was OK but I can't say for certain which competitions I did this in" will probably be met with the response "thanks for telling us, but as you can't be sure, just make sure you don't do it again". End of.
For bounce games, I'm sure if Hovis went to his PPs\group and said "guys, you know I sometimes tell you on the first tee that I have too many clubs but don't intend to use 2 of them? Well, I have just found out that is against the rules and I may have won some money from you guys over the last 5 years but I don't know for sure when it was and how much I won". I'm pretty sure this would be met with the response "don't worry about it, good of you to fess up but you know now.", at least that would be my response.
Yes we should follow the rules, and Hovis thought he was, but suggesting he retrospectively hands back all his winnings\prizes just doesn't make any sense.
What has followed from this, suggesting he goes to the competition secretary and admits his mistakes is just a little daft, not because it isn't the right thing to do, but because it is absolutely impossible for Hovis to know when in the last however long he has been doing this that he has broken this rule. He has stated that he "often" does this, not "always" and he has also stated that he doesn't go to the range before qualifiers so probably hasn't done this in a comp. In order to own up to his mistake, he has to be certain when he made the mistake and when the mistake occurred and I doubt he can be.
Going to the competition secretary and saying "at some point in the last 5 years I may have been carrying more than 14 clubs. I did tell my FCs before the start of play and I thought this was OK but I can't say for certain which competitions I did this in" will probably be met with the response "thanks for telling us, but as you can't be sure, just make sure you don't do it again". End of.
For bounce games, I'm sure if Hovis went to his PPs\group and said "guys, you know I sometimes tell you on the first tee that I have too many clubs but don't intend to use 2 of them? Well, I have just found out that is against the rules and I may have won some money from you guys over the last 5 years but I don't know for sure when it was and how much I won". I'm pretty sure this would be met with the response "don't worry about it, good of you to fess up but you know now.", at least that would be my response.
Yes we should follow the rules, and Hovis thought he was, but suggesting he retrospectively hands back all his winnings\prizes just doesn't make any sense.
Liqdaddymac
Head Pro
I was about that, don't need to, I really get round it by having double headed clubs....
