milngavie_hacker
Member
Your 10 posts on this message board have all been on this thread. Have you had a personal falling out with Zen?
Zen Golf Mechanics (Marcus Bell + Robin Matthews-Williams)
- Thread starter Depreston
- Start date
shaw_SHANK redemption
New member
No not at all; just think their approach is “snake oil salesman”. Each to their own but far more competent coaches out there have been teaching the same formula way before they came on the scene.
MACM85
Newbie
I have discussed Zen with a few people. I can see the logic in what he is trying to teach. However I just can't see it being viable long term to constantly remember to drop and pop and twist and shout etc. It just makes me think that this feel move is great when you're playing well but as soon as a dodgy spell happens you will struggle massively to find that feel again unless you go back to Zen
The price of his away trips are crazy. However there will be people out there willing to pay and get on with it.
The price of his away trips are crazy. However there will be people out there willing to pay and get on with it.
Slw87
New member
Struggling to break 100 maybe it’s worth a try, it ruined my swing though. Golf is more than shifting pressure and being able to swing like throwing a ball. Spent a year in hooksville before seeking a proper conventional teacher.
snowbind
New member
Hi,
I registered to post this comment, so I can understand you might think that's 'sus' but so be it.
A bit about me, I've been playing for the last 2.5 years, Arccos tells me I have a handicap of 26. That's a bit misleading though. I have the shortgame and putting of a single digit golfer and the approach and driving of a blind man. What I do have and what repeatedly get's me into trouble is my speed. I can carry my 7 iron 190 yards. I started off as a slicer, managed to turn it into a fade. Read Hogan's book and now I'm a pull hooker. So the last few rounds I've been taking my pw, 9, 8 iron off the tee. I watch a lot of youtube golf and I have been for lessons in the past.
I'd been wanting to try the Zen golf approach for a while, so rather than buying myself a new watch with some bonus money, I booked in to see George. In my lesson we covered:
Alignment
Target Line
Ball flight Laws
Grip
Takeaway
Using the ground to start the swing
Body Separation
Weight Transfer
Release Patterns
Angle of attach
Club face control
Finish patterns
With Irons
Then we did the same thing with the driver.
Post my lesson I got a 4.5 hour video, with the entirety of my lesson. I've been through it a few times. Put in time stamps and I am slowly working through the drills and feelings we explored in the lesson. I went into the lesson with a clear ask, to give me the framework to understand my ball flight and to help me understand the variables I can tweak to effect it. I walked away with all of those things.
I was under no illusion that a 4 hour lesson would revolutionise how I play immediately. I played two days after my lesson and played awfully, but more importantly for the first time in playing golf in the last 2.5 years I knew why each shot did what it did. And each cause of that shot was something I knew I had to work on from my lesson. And work on it I shall. I went into this with the mindset I will need to grind out practice during winter. Explore the ranges of my movement, my swing, my face control and arrive at something calm and repeatable for spring that I can take to the course.
I went to the range last night and had just that experience. I got warmed up and then stared to find those feelings back. Moving my swing path around, the force I was generating and when I was releasing the club. All things I didn't have any real sensation or control over before. And my pull hook was gone. I also hit my driver, well. I put the ball in the air and it went 250 yards with what felt like no effort and no dramatic spin.
I can fully appreciate if the Zen method doesn't work for you. The problem with golf and the golf swing is that it is based 100% on feel as someone subjectively doing it. And feelings are almost ineffable in their nature. The zen approach distilled away from all the personal politics is about experiential and exploratory learning, which for me is perfect. It might not be for you though.
I registered to post this comment, so I can understand you might think that's 'sus' but so be it.
A bit about me, I've been playing for the last 2.5 years, Arccos tells me I have a handicap of 26. That's a bit misleading though. I have the shortgame and putting of a single digit golfer and the approach and driving of a blind man. What I do have and what repeatedly get's me into trouble is my speed. I can carry my 7 iron 190 yards. I started off as a slicer, managed to turn it into a fade. Read Hogan's book and now I'm a pull hooker. So the last few rounds I've been taking my pw, 9, 8 iron off the tee. I watch a lot of youtube golf and I have been for lessons in the past.
I'd been wanting to try the Zen golf approach for a while, so rather than buying myself a new watch with some bonus money, I booked in to see George. In my lesson we covered:
Alignment
Target Line
Ball flight Laws
Grip
Takeaway
Using the ground to start the swing
Body Separation
Weight Transfer
Release Patterns
Angle of attach
Club face control
Finish patterns
With Irons
Then we did the same thing with the driver.
Post my lesson I got a 4.5 hour video, with the entirety of my lesson. I've been through it a few times. Put in time stamps and I am slowly working through the drills and feelings we explored in the lesson. I went into the lesson with a clear ask, to give me the framework to understand my ball flight and to help me understand the variables I can tweak to effect it. I walked away with all of those things.
I was under no illusion that a 4 hour lesson would revolutionise how I play immediately. I played two days after my lesson and played awfully, but more importantly for the first time in playing golf in the last 2.5 years I knew why each shot did what it did. And each cause of that shot was something I knew I had to work on from my lesson. And work on it I shall. I went into this with the mindset I will need to grind out practice during winter. Explore the ranges of my movement, my swing, my face control and arrive at something calm and repeatable for spring that I can take to the course.
I went to the range last night and had just that experience. I got warmed up and then stared to find those feelings back. Moving my swing path around, the force I was generating and when I was releasing the club. All things I didn't have any real sensation or control over before. And my pull hook was gone. I also hit my driver, well. I put the ball in the air and it went 250 yards with what felt like no effort and no dramatic spin.
I can fully appreciate if the Zen method doesn't work for you. The problem with golf and the golf swing is that it is based 100% on feel as someone subjectively doing it. And feelings are almost ineffable in their nature. The zen approach distilled away from all the personal politics is about experiential and exploratory learning, which for me is perfect. It might not be for you though.
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Jensen
Tour Rookie
I lost concentration past being able to CARRY a 7 iron 190 yards !!!!!
That’s further than a Pro hits it
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
I lost concentration past being able to CARRY a 7 iron 190 yards !!!!!
That’s further than a Pro hits it
I can carry my 7 iron 190.. in my bag
snowbind
New member
Quite. The difference between me and a pro (other than driving, putting, chipping, bank balance, course IQ), is that a pro can put their 7 iron where they intend. Thankfully I use Arccos, so it's easily demonstrable. Like I said, I don't think being able to hit that far is actually useful and it's largely been a problem for me. @Jensen I used to have issues with concentration too, then I started to exercise more and meditate. That might help.
I understand your knee-jerk reaction might be to say that's all roll, but me and my friend played 2 weeks ago and the ground was sodden. The balls were plugging most of the day. It's worth saying these are all before I went to Zen/GRF.
I understand your knee-jerk reaction might be to say that's all roll, but me and my friend played 2 weeks ago and the ground was sodden. The balls were plugging most of the day. It's worth saying these are all before I went to Zen/GRF.
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snowbind
New member
I just want to comment on this. Not specifically about Zen, but about humans learn in general. The process of learning is moving a new idea out of conscious thought, into subconscious, so we don't have to think about it. If you can remember when you learnt to drive, the car feels weird and awkward. You have to think about the wheel, the gear stick, the clutch, the biting point. As well as trying to maneuverer this death machine around all the other death machines. Over time you stop thinking about the mechanics as your brain just takes over. That's generally how humans learn and it's a very well accepted neurological/psychological model. So in regards to the above, you think about it until you don't think about it.
Albo
Well-known member
Sounds like an advert for this Zen whatever it is.
I can show you many Arccos screen grabs of my 5i going 230, but I don’t hit my 5i 230, hell if I wanted to I could make Arcoss look like I hit my PW 300!
You don’t carry your 7i 190 with any regularity.
And I doubt anyone is buying into your ‘advert’
I can show you many Arccos screen grabs of my 5i going 230, but I don’t hit my 5i 230, hell if I wanted to I could make Arcoss look like I hit my PW 300!
You don’t carry your 7i 190 with any regularity.
And I doubt anyone is buying into your ‘advert’
Albo
Well-known member
Finally something I agree with, we do learn that way, however, with the golf swing we don’t repeat that way, or at least don’t often enough to actually benefit
snowbind
New member
Hi. I'm not advertising anything. I'm just talking about my experience. This is really one of two threads that come up about zen when you google it, so I thought it would be useful to share my experience. I think upon reflection this isn't the right place for that. Which is perfectly fine. It makes no difference to my game what you chose to believe or not. We've fallen into the realm of troublesome knowledge and I've no interest in helping you through that.
You are of course absolutely right though, I barely carry my 7 iron 100 yards and just switched my Driver to my 7 Iron in Arccos. I should really know better than to have tried to have fooled anyone from the Golf-Monthly forum. Thankfully you've solved the case and can sleep soundly now, knowing your world view remains intact.
As you were.
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Backsticks
Assistant Pro
190yd carry with a 7 iron should be playing off lower than 5HI if not scratch.
With short game and putting of a single HI golfer, you should be there, so it isnt that.
Could be a strong swing flaw that rather than true swing speed of a <5, is hooding or delofting the club on those big hits to a 3i. Have seen a few golfers who have that, say they cant hit a driver to saves their lives (and they cant, because they deloft it to negative, or have some crazy impact adjustments to counteract that). So they take a 5 iron from the tee (delofting it also, so getting plenty of distance on the good ones, but some are over done and hook severely).
Check your clubhead speed. I think it needs to be about well over 90mph with a 7i to get that sort of carry. Ball speed about 125 . Driver head speed should be about 115mph (thats above PGAT level). Check you have those. If not, then you arent really hitting your 7i as a 7i. If you really do have those speeds, then there is a lot right with your swing. Just keep playing and the consistency will come. And a scratch handicap.
With short game and putting of a single HI golfer, you should be there, so it isnt that.
Could be a strong swing flaw that rather than true swing speed of a <5, is hooding or delofting the club on those big hits to a 3i. Have seen a few golfers who have that, say they cant hit a driver to saves their lives (and they cant, because they deloft it to negative, or have some crazy impact adjustments to counteract that). So they take a 5 iron from the tee (delofting it also, so getting plenty of distance on the good ones, but some are over done and hook severely).
Check your clubhead speed. I think it needs to be about well over 90mph with a 7i to get that sort of carry. Ball speed about 125 . Driver head speed should be about 115mph (thats above PGAT level). Check you have those. If not, then you arent really hitting your 7i as a 7i. If you really do have those speeds, then there is a lot right with your swing. Just keep playing and the consistency will come. And a scratch handicap.
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Jensen
Tour Rookie
Zen now seem to be known as GRF, anyone know why this is and what does it stand for ?
They are running 4 hour sessions near me for £250, based on groups of 4. So that’s £62 per hour, but with 4 people.
They are running 4 hour sessions near me for £250, based on groups of 4. So that’s £62 per hour, but with 4 people.
BubbaP
Occasional Player of Golf
Think it may be shorthand for the 'wobble board' they now sell
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
On a slight tangent - good listen
Notleadingbythree
New member
Exactly....I went a few years ago...bought the board..hardly used it..gone back to my local pro.... but use bits from Zen...
That's about it...The current marketing and prices are nuts but it will capture those people who want hit their 7 iron 190 +yards. .....
KJK14
New member
Hi all,
I realise this is an older thread and having read through the posts, I'm quite intrigued by the whole ZEN/GRF philosophy and I'd like to try it out.
Wondering if any one would be willing to part ways with the GRF board and the associated components?
Currently 6 week lead time for delivery on new ones, even in the UK. I'd like to give it a go whilst still in the off season/winter practice mode.
TIA
KK
I realise this is an older thread and having read through the posts, I'm quite intrigued by the whole ZEN/GRF philosophy and I'd like to try it out.
Wondering if any one would be willing to part ways with the GRF board and the associated components?
Currently 6 week lead time for delivery on new ones, even in the UK. I'd like to give it a go whilst still in the off season/winter practice mode.
TIA
KK
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bwstokie
Member
I’ve got the full shabang in as new condition and open to a sensible offer…
KJK14
New member
Sounds good to me. Is that the full GRF kit? would you do it through P Pal? You in the UK?