WW3 -All Russia / Ukraine stuff here please-

[phillarrow]

The UK was and is quite capable of producing many of the things they import from China, including textiles, engineered components, tooling, electrical/electronic goods etc. They may cost more to make but as I have previously explained much of that would be offset by the employment/tax revenue/savings in state benefits by the employment created. It has been done before and is still done by small countries. As I also explained, we should have started this year's ago. The other benefit is the creation of meaningful jobs for people which helps to improve morale and well being. Just look to Germany for an example.

I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly, but it doesn't have to be done solely in Britain. The democratic west, as a whole, needs to end our reliance on China and Russia and rebuild our manufacturing industries, with a commitment to purchase from each other instead of the far East.
We also need to further our commitment to ending our reliance on gas and oil.

Yes, prices will go up but as you say, these will be worth it for the other benefits such a move would bring to our societies - generational unemployment has been devastating in many communities and it could be ended quite quickly.

The benefits to the environment of reduced transportation of goods would also be huge.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly, but it doesn't have to be done solely in Britain. The democratic west, as a whole, needs to end our reliance on China and Russia and rebuild our manufacturing industries, with a commitment to purchase from each other instead of the far East.
We also need to further our commitment to ending our reliance on gas and oil.

Yes, prices will go up but as you say, these will be worth it for the other benefits such a move would bring to our societies - generational unemployment has been devastating in many communities and it could be ended quite quickly.

The benefits to the environment of reduced transportation of goods would also be huge.

There is much that could be said in respect of your thoughts on renewables and transportation, but that would step over the P-line and so will have to be left unsaid. But I can agree with your comments in a general way.

 

[ExRabbit]

There is much that could be said in respect of your thoughts on renewables and transportation, but that would step over the P-line and so will have to be left unsaid. But I can agree with your comments in a general way.

FFS give it a rest! How many times do you have to let it be unsaid, whilst at the same time letting us know what you really think??

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Now we are all also experts in industrial scale manufacturing. Could someone answer the following.

What would we be manufacturing?
Where would all the factories be built?
Where is all the labour coming from?
How much of an increase in cost are we going to have to swallow?
How long will it take to get us up and running?
And who will buy our goods?

 

[Swango1980]

Now we are all also experts in industrial scale manufacturing. Could someone answer the following.

What would we be manufacturing?
Where would all the factories be built?
Where is all the labour coming from?
How much of an increase in cost are we going to have to swallow?
How long will it take to get us up and running?
And who will buy our goods?

I was assuming making all these changes would be as simple as typing a post on a forum to say it should happen.

Are you suggesting it might be a bit more complicated than that?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Now we are all also experts in industrial scale manufacturing. Could someone answer the following.

What would we be manufacturing?
Where would all the factories be built?
Where is all the labour coming from?
How much of an increase in cost are we going to have to swallow?
How long will it take to get us up and running?
And who will buy our goods?

In rapid form, we could mfr everything that is currently made in China, after all we used to before it was transferred out there. Build them anywhere you like, plenty of brownfield sites, plenty of councils would roll out the red carpet for you. Labour, everywhere.

The next three are the real problems. No one is going to set up a factory, invest in machinery, employ people etc on a wing and a prayer. Build it and they will come, doesn't work in business, as Kev partially found out. Goods will cost more, costs to mfr are far greater than in China so you are asking the consumer to pay more, let's say 20% as a hypothetical figure, and history shows that people generally lean towards a lower priced figure. If you want mfrs here to stand a chance then it will need the govt to place significant tariffs on imports to level up their prices. Tariffs equal a trade war plus inflation, never popular with govts.

I've had the above conversation with many an elderly relative who bemoan what has happened but will happily tell me how they saved money by swapping supermarkets from Morrison's to aldi, buying their TV from Asda etc. We can reverse what has happened but people would have to accept an end to the cheap culture they have become used to, and rather like. Until that happens any business setting up to compete largely doesn't stand a chance.

(I'm guessing you know all of the above but I thought it may be useful for those not in this area of work to expand on your points. You may well disagree on my first 3 points, I get that, but I stand by them)

 

[phillarrow]

Now we are all also experts in industrial scale manufacturing. Could someone answer the following.

What would we be manufacturing?

Electronics, clothing, white goods. You know, the stuff we currently import from the far east.

Where would all the factories be built?

Between Europe and America, there's quite a lot of space!

Where is all the labour coming from?

The millions of unemployed across the western world. When the jobs are created, the level and extent of income support for unemployed people would come down. Eventually, people would have no option but to take the jobs that are there.

How much of an increase in cost are we going to have to swallow?

As much as it costs! Or, carry on buying cheap imported crap, rely on these regimes that western governments feel are rotten and corrupt, and then keep our fingers crossed that Russia stops at Ukraine, that China doesn't feel emboldened to go into Taiwan, that these countries whose governments clearly despise the west, don't use our reliance against us. Not much of a plan as it turns out!

How long will it take to get us up and running?

Depends how committed we are to it but it can be done within 5-10 years of we are. It only takes a few months to build a factory.

And who will buy our goods?

Strange question - the same people who currently buy the imported goods from the far East? In talking about a multi-national manufacturing and purchasing agreement.

Answers above. Nobody has said it will be easy or quick, but it is possible and if we don't end our reliance upon these states, we can too easily held to ransom by them, which then makes it hard to prevent what we're currently seeing.

Edit:To save any daft responses, when I say "Between Europe and America..." I don't mean in-between! ? I mean if you add them together! ?

 

[Deleted member 21784]

.

I've had the above conversation with many an elderly relative who bemoan what has happened but will happily tell me how they saved money by swapping supermarkets from Morrison's to aldi, buying their TV from Asda etc. We can reverse what has happened but people would have to accept an end to the cheap culture they have become used to, and rather like. Until that happens any business setting up to compete largely doesn't stand a chance.

problem then comes with the people who shop at Asda from the off etc etc , how do they then adjust to the squeeze

 

[Lord Tyrion]

problem then comes with the people who shop at Asda from the off etc etc , how do they then adjust to the squeeze

The same way people managed before. As it happens, food is not really relevant in this so that isn't really part of the discussion. It's about goods, stuff. Do we really need as much stuff, do we need to keep replacing it, upgrading it? The 40" TV is fine but Dave next door has a 60" one, we need to buy a new one. That mentality has to change. We have to become less consumerist, unless you can afford to of course. These are not life essentials though, or if they are, washing machine for example, you have to go back to saving before buying, prioritising etc.

 

[phillarrow]

The same way people managed before. As it happens, food is not really relevant in this so that isn't really part of the discussion. It's about goods, stuff. Do we really need as much stuff, do we need to keep replacing it, upgrading it? The 40" TV is fine but Dave next door has a 60" one, we need to buy a new one. That mentality has to change. We have to become less consumerist, unless you can afford to of course. These are not life essentials though, or if they are, washing machine for example, you have to go back to saving before buying, prioritising etc.

Or fixing them instead of replacing them. ? And with the new laws about right to repair, this has become easier. In itself, there is another new/old job sector that can be re-established.

 

[clubchamp98]

The same way people managed before. As it happens, food is not really relevant in this so that isn't really part of the discussion. It's about goods, stuff. Do we really need as much stuff, do we need to keep replacing it, upgrading it? The 40" TV is fine but Dave next door has a 60" one, we need to buy a new one. That mentality has to change. We have to become less consumerist, unless you can afford to of course. These are not life essentials though, or if they are, washing machine for example, you have to go back to saving before buying, prioritising etc.

Yes I agree with what you say .
But isn’t it mainly about Tax most manufacturing went abroad so they can pay poverty wages to the workers.
Here we are taxed until the pips squeak that’s why we don’t have any manufacturing left.
Most tech firms don’t pay their taxes as they are global and have very clever accounting.
Just look at the taxes on petrol as an example.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Yes I agree with what you say .
But isn’t it mainly about Tax most manufacturing went abroad so they can pay poverty wages to the workers.
Here we are taxed until the pips squeak that’s why we don’t have any manufacturing left.
Most tech firms don’t pay their taxes as they are global and have very clever accounting.
Just look at the taxes on petrol as an example.

Tax is a part of it but not all. Wages are a massive part, various costs but yes tax as well. Environmental taxes (and rules), energy costs, business rates, NI etc all add up and are miniscule in China in comparison.

There is a reason why most mfr follows a low labour wage though, sadly.

Multi nationals could still mfr in the UK and manipulate the corporation tax that they pay, that isn't the barrier.

 

[SocketRocket]

In rapid form, we could mfr everything that is currently made in China, after all we used to before it was transferred out there. Build them anywhere you like, plenty of brownfield sites, plenty of councils would roll out the red carpet for you. Labour, everywhere.

The next three are the real problems. No one is going to set up a factory, invest in machinery, employ people etc on a wing and a prayer. Build it and they will come, doesn't work in business, as Kev partially found out. Goods will cost more, costs to mfr are far greater than in China so you are asking the consumer to pay more, let's say 20% as a hypothetical figure, and history shows that people generally lean towards a lower priced figure. If you want mfrs here to stand a chance then it will need the govt to place significant tariffs on imports to level up their prices. Tariffs equal a trade war plus inflation, never popular with govts.

I've had the above conversation with many an elderly relative who bemoan what has happened but will happily tell me how they saved money by swapping supermarkets from Morrison's to aldi, buying their TV from Asda etc. We can reverse what has happened but people would have to accept an end to the cheap culture they have become used to, and rather like. Until that happens any business setting up to compete largely doesn't stand a chance.

(I'm guessing you know all of the above but I thought it may be useful for those not in this area of work to expand on your points. You may well disagree on my first 3 points, I get that, but I stand by them)

There are ways and means if the will is there. My question is 'Whats the alternative'. We have and will learn that cheap and often low quality products from Countries like China, India etc come with a price. We have experienced in our societies what we must pay in the way of regional degradation and poverty so that someone can wear cheap socks or have three TVs in their home.

To me it's time to reinvent ourselves and plan for a different future thats more in line with countries like Germany who take pride in their manufacturing and quality products even if they are more expensive. Reading s few of the despotic posts it sounds like we have no way to change. People suggesting it would take a long time or we don't have room for factories are IMO surrendering to a culture that is and will keep biting us in the backside.

 

[Tashyboy]

Personally I find it nigh on impossible to discuss manufacturing, etc without using the “ P “ word so am giving this a miss ?

 

[SocketRocket]

Personally I find it nigh on impossible to discuss manufacturing, etc without using the “ P “ word so am giving this a miss ?

It doesn't need to be outright political Tash. It's a little bit off piste but our reliance on countries like Russia and China and what we could do about improving it doesn't need to be pointed at the Politic.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

It doesn't need to be outright political Tash. It's a little bit off piste but our reliance on countries like Russia and China and what we could do about improving it doesn't need to be pointed at the Politic.

Goes back to short term thinking and short term money making.

For example the dartford crossing over the thames being sold off to an outside company, instant money into HMRC but imagine having that toll drip feeding, yes it was suppose to be free once cost of building had been covered but change always happens.. So it used to be £1 and manned by toll attendants now its like £2.50 a pop, ANPR cameras , so easy to get the money in .. yet thats been sold to someone rather than being a constant feed of money which would be great

It always goes back to the obsession with "balancing the books" so short term making savings in ways that in a few years its goes back when someone else takes over

Just a constant way of working would be good with a clear plan

 

[Tashyboy]

Personally I find it nigh on impossible to discuss manufacturing, etc without using the “ P “ word so am giving this a miss ?

It doesn’t SR,but back in the day when we had nationised industry we never relied on other countries for energy, steel, services etc. they were subsidised by tax payers to produce a service and create employment in this country. We were then told that privatisation and holding shares in companies we owned was the way forward. Our large industries went into privatisation which we were told would create competition and lower prices. That’s not worked out to well. Look at railways for example, look at energy. But that’s a simplistic way of putting it without getting political. Like I say, I totally agree with what has been said re being more independent But it’s a tough topic without getting the big P involved.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

It doesn’t SR,but back in the day when we had nationised industry we never relied on other countries for energy, steel, services etc. they were subsidised by tax payers to produce a service and create employment in this country. We were then told that privatisation and holding shares in companies we owned was the way forward. Our large industries went into privatisation which we were told would create competition and lower prices. That’s not worked out to well. Look at railways for example, look at energy. But that’s a simplistic way of putting it without getting political. Like I say, I totally agree with what has been said re being more independent But it’s a tough topic without getting the big P involved.

To be fair Tash, whilst im firmly on your side I will say we do have more options than ever and it has given cheaper prices in a lot of aspects until covid

energy is a prime example

this covid then war has caused this and it wont get better anytime soon

with transport im again on your side firmly. However when people moan about the costs its all linked, for example the cost of a travel cards are like £50 a week for certain ones, when that factors in getting to work thats cheaper than driving at times

 

[stefanovic]

What's the closest the Doomsday Clock has been?

Set last month before the war in Ukraine:
The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists announced on Jan. 20 that the hands of the Doomsday Clock remain at 100 seconds to midnight—the closest it has ever been to apocalypse.

It's not all about nuclear.
The human infestation of this planet is now approaching 6 billion more than what is sustainable taking into account the earth's available biomass.
At age 72 why should I care?
But I do, not for me but for future generations.
As Einstein said: I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.

 

[Tashyboy]

What's the closest the Doomsday Clock has been?

Set last month before the war in Ukraine:
The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists announced on Jan. 20 that the hands of the Doomsday Clock remain at 100 seconds to midnight—the closest it has ever been to apocalypse.

It's not all about nuclear.
The human infestation of this planet is now approaching 6 billion more than what is sustainable taking into account the earth's available biomass.
At age 72 why should I care?
But I do, not for me but for future generations.
As Einstein said: I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.

Infestation is a strange choice of words. ??