WHS and club completions

[Dunesman]

My club runs quite a few roll up, enter on the day competitions, midweek stablefords and medals and quite a few Sunday comps. The field size for these comps varies from 6 to 90. The field composition and size for these competitions is not know beforehand.

The average golfer (with an HI of 17.7) would have a CH of 21. If the comp has an allowance of 100%, they would have a Playing Handicap of 21 - if the comp has an allowance of 85%, they would have a Playing Handicap of 18.

In these circumstances which allowance should they use for these competitions in future?

Best estimate based on previous turnouts, weather, time of the year, etc Its not a precise science as we know. At the moment there is only one number anyway, and it would seem we now have acknowledgement that one size fits all doesnt work, or that better is possible. So adding some scope to choose a different factor may still be imperfect, but less imperfect than today.

 

[Dunesman]

No, the point you have missed is that is the committee, not the player, deciding or not whether the player has fulfilled the criteria that they have laid down for pre registration. If the player has, in the view of the committee, not pre registered then he is not in the competition at all. It is merely saying that by the act of entering the competition this is saying that they are going to be submitting an acceptable score, they do not need to register their intent to submit a score separately.

I know that is how it happens, it seems universally, at the moment. But the rule leaves the option of the committee to hand the decision back to the player, rather than to make the decision on intent simply on the basis that they have entered the competition. Its a facility that clubs are maybe not aware of, but might suit many players. The resistance to clubs taking control of roll ups stems from the then obligatory submitting of a score for handicap, which many players do not want. If they have the option to not opt in, then the resistance to clubs taking control of rollups would evaoporate.

 

[D-S]

Best estimate based on previous turnouts, weather, time of the year, etc Its not a precise science as we know. At the moment there is only one number anyway, and it would seem we now have acknowledgement that one size fits all doesnt work, or that better is possible. So adding some scope to choose a different factor may still be imperfect, but less imperfect than today.

Try explaining that to the guy who is getting 3 shots less than last week.

 

[D-S]

I know that is how it happens, it seems universally, at the moment. But the rule leaves the option of the committee to hand the decision back to the player, rather than to make the decision on intent simply on the basis that they have entered the competition. Its a facility that clubs are maybe not aware of, but might suit many players. The resistance to clubs taking control of roll ups stems from the then obligatory submitting of a score for handicap, which many players do not want. If they have the option to not opt in, then the resistance to clubs taking control of rollups would evaoporate.

No you are not handing it back to the player - if you haven't pre registered for the comp, you are not in the comp. You can't be in the comp and not be putting a card in acceptable for handicap.

The only decision the player has to make is, is whether they are entering the comp or not.

 

[Dunesman]

No you are not handing it back to the player - if you haven't pre registered for the comp, you are not in the comp. You can't be in the comp and not be putting a card in acceptable for handicap.

The only decision the player has to make is, is whether they are entering the comp or not.

Only if the club is exercising its option to assume entering the comp is also an intent to put the card in for handicap. If it doesnt, which it doesnt have to (as I say, I havent come across it yet), then the player is in the comp, but has the option in their own control to register or not that the card is also for handicap.

 

[rulefan]

The ‘may’ in your quote refers to pre registration not to whether the round will be acceptable for handicap or not.

I agree. It is an option for the committee to decide whether or not the whole competition should count for handicapping. (eg course conditions, presence of contractors who may influence play at different places and different times.) It is not about any individual player.

 

[D-S]

Only if the club is exercising its option to assume entering the comp is also an intent to put the card in for handicap. If it doesnt, which it doesnt have to (as I say, I havent come across it yet), then the player is in the comp, but has the option in their own control to register or not that the card is also for handicap.

The player does not have the right to register for the competition and decide whether or not to make the score acceptable for handicap - end of.

The only people in this scenario who can change the status of the card in the competition are those on the Handicap Committee.

 

[wjemather]

I agree. It is an option for the committee to decide whether or not the whole competition should count for handicapping. (eg course conditions, presence of contractors who may influence play at different places and different times.) It is not about any individual player.

This may be misleading. If the conditions for an acceptable score are met, there is no option for anyone when it comes to competitions.

 

[Dunesman]

This may be misleading. If the conditions for an acceptable score are met, there is no option for anyone when it comes to competitions.

In rosecott's quite though, the option is there. Sure, if the committee makes the decision that entered players are preregistered, then yes, the player cannot then opt out. But if a committee decides, which is their option according to the rule, then the decision is in the hands of the player. Using 'may' means it is an option not an obligation, so a committee is fully free to not consider entrants preregistered.

 

[wjemather]

In rosecott's quite though, the option is there. Sure, if the committee makes the decision that entered players are preregistered, then yes, the player cannot then opt out. But if a committee decides, which is their option according to the rule, then the decision is in the hands of the player. Using 'may' means it is an option not an obligation, so a committee is fully free to not consider entrants preregistered.

Clarification 2.1a/2

Rule 1.3(i) states that a player is expected to “submit all acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability”. Subject to other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, an acceptable score from an authorized format of play must be submitted for handicap purposes, even if it was from a competition organized by an entity that is not affiliated to the Authorized Association, for example a Society or League.​

G2.1a (1)

It is a requirement in GB&I that players pre-register on the day if they wish their scores to be used for handicapping purposes both for competitions and for General Play. Clubs will need to have procedures in place for this, and with increasing computerization of handicapping they may find that their software will have an inbuilt pre-registration facility.​

WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered...​

 

[D-S]

In rosecott's quite though, the option is there. Sure, if the committee makes the decision that entered players are preregistered, then yes, the player cannot then opt out. But if a committee decides, which is their option according to the rule, then the decision is in the hands of the player. Using 'may' means it is an option not an obligation, so a committee is fully free to not consider entrants preregistered.

The only decision that a player can make is to be in the competition or not. If he is in the competition he has no choice whatsoever as to the status of the card.

 

[rosecott]

In rosecott's quite though, the option is there. Sure, if the committee makes the decision that entered players are preregistered, then yes, the player cannot then opt out. But if a committee decides, which is their option according to the rule, then the decision is in the hands of the player. Using 'may' means it is an option not an obligation, so a committee is fully free to not consider entrants preregistered.

Yet more nonsense

 

[Dunesman]

Clarification 2.1a/2

Rule 1.3(i) states that a player is expected to “submit all acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability”. Subject to other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, an acceptable score from an authorized format of play must be submitted for handicap purposes, even if it was from a competition organized by an entity that is not affiliated to the Authorized Association, for example a Society or League.​

G2.1a (1)

It is a requirement in GB&I that players pre-register on the day if they wish their scores to be used for handicapping purposes both for competitions and for General Play. Clubs will need to have procedures in place for this, and with increasing computerization of handicapping they may find that their software will have an inbuilt pre-registration facility.​

WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered...​

Maybe its another instance of the rules being out of touch like the playing handicap factor. It would solve the swindles problem nicely.
In effect, they are placing competitions rounds on a higher standing than GP rounds again, like EG is.
We might hear this weak, that on a trial basis, competition cards counting for handicap is optional in Wales

 

[rulie]

Can the player in the competition just NR, say by picking up his ball instead of putting out?

 

[D-S]

Maybe its another instance of the rules being out of touch like the playing handicap factor. It would solve the swindles problem nicely.
In effect, they are placing competitions rounds on a higher standing than GP rounds again, like EG is.
We might hear this weak, that on a trial basis, competition cards counting for handicap is optional in Wales

I have tried to be as neutral as possible in my replies, but a lot of what you are saying now is unfortunately nonsensical drivel.

 

[wjemather]

Can the player in the competition just NR, say by picking up his ball instead of putting out?

No. That would be contrary to their responsibilities as a player (Rule 1.3 & Appendix A).

 

[rulie]

No. That would be contrary to their responsibilities as a player (Rule 1.3 & Appendix A).

Rule 1.3 does not have a penalty statement; it does default to a Code of Conduct. What is Appendix A?
The player has just failed to hole out, dq'd for breach of Rule 3.3 (except in Stableford etc).

 

[wjemather]

Rule 1.3 does not have a penalty statement; it does default to a Code of Conduct. What is Appendix A?
The player has just failed to hole out, dq'd for breach of Rule 3.3 (except in Stableford etc).

Sorry... Rules of Handicapping, not Rules of Golf.

 

[rulie]

Sorry... Rules of Handicapping, not Rules of Golf.

So what happens to the score when a player is dq'd from the competition?

 

[nickjdavis]

So what happens to the score when a player is dq'd from the competition?

Depends on the reason for DQ and whether the player got a significant scoring advantage.

So stuff like forgetting to sign the card - the score is still acceptable, ignoring a rule or not applying a penalty - the score is not acceptable