Where does the power come from in the swing?

[stefanovic]

Do your legs do anything on the backswing?

Legs are just levers to keep you upright to walk, and so that you can look out for predators (and hit golf balls).
For me, they merely respond to the weight shift from the upper body.

Is it possible that there can be multiple sources of power?

A sequence of power accumulators sounds like a good idea, but can anyone explain the actual sequence?

If you're Phil Mickelson and can already find the centre of the club, strength and speed work will make a big difference as witnessed by his clubhead speed being about 120mph this year, a jump of about 6mph from last year.

Wish I was, and could.

What are you personally trying to achieve?

I have only been able to attempt the swing again recently after a nagging left arm injury which seemed to have finished my golf days. A Tai Chi move appears to have helped, but I'll see and can now play 9 holes. I feel like a beginner again and hope for a bit of advice that might get me over 200 yards with the driver. At the moment I hit about 170 yards in average conditions.

 

[Dibby]

Legs are just levers to keep you upright to walk, and so that you can look out for predators (and hit golf balls).
For me, they merely respond to the weight shift from the upper body.

A sequence of power accumulators sounds like a good idea, but can anyone explain the actual sequence?

Wish I was, and could.

I have only been able to attempt the swing again recently after a nagging left arm injury which seemed to have finished my golf days. A Tai Chi move appears to have helped, but I'll see and can now play 9 holes. I feel like a beginner again and hope for a bit of advice that might get me over 200 yards with the driver. At the moment I hit about 170 yards in average conditions.

Ok, so bare with me, this is going somewhere.

Imagine a golfer is placed into space (forget the biological needs such as to breathe) he is positioned and released so that he is stationary. The same is done for a golf ball in the perfect address position. What happens when the golfer tries to swing and hit the ball?

 

[stefanovic]

Imagine a golfer is placed into space (forget the biological needs such as to breathe) he is positioned and released so that he is stationary. The same is done for a golf ball in the perfect address position. What happens when the golfer tries to swing and hit the ball?

In 'zero gravity', I don't know. Shepard hit a golf ball on the moon and it went only 200 - 400 yards.

On another point re the legs. Seve used to hit balls while kneeling to prove it wasn't all in the legs. He managed 240 yards.

 

[Dibby]

In 'zero gravity', I don't know. Shepard hit a golf ball on the moon and it went only 200 - 400 yards.

On another point re the legs. Seve used to hit balls while kneeling to prove it wasn't all in the legs. He managed 240 yards.

In space the golfer will go backwards, and the ball will go forwards. Action and reaction. I thought you'd appreciate the science of that.

Back on earth, the golfer doesn't go backwards, because he pushes against the ground to transfer more energy to the ball. Hitting from the knees still uses ground forces, so I guess technically legs should be ground, just that for a normal swing our legs via our feet are how we generate ground forces.

If you want understand eliminating ground forces, I don't recommend it, but you can try hitting a ball whilst standing (or kneeling) on a sheet of ice, or some other frictionless surface, even kneeling on a wheely chair whilst trying to swing would prove this point.

 

[stefanovic]

In space the golfer will go backwards, and the ball will go forwards. Action and reaction. I thought you'd appreciate the science of that.

An astronaut did try hitting a golf ball on a spacewalk, but in the video it's not clear if he did go backwards. His bones and muscles probably absorbed most of the recoil.
On land the recoil between the ball and club head will mostly be absorbed by the feet and legs, but in a player with poor balance he could fall slightly back. I've seen plenty of players fall slightly backwards after hitting the ball.
In space you do not need balance. Apart from Newton's Third Law you also have Newton's First Law which is Inertia, which nobody understands.
I think you are confusing a Velikovsky ('Worlds in Collision') type moment when a large object collides with another large object producing a shift in momentum and position with a small interaction between a ball and a golf club.

Some real science here:

 

[Dibby]

An astronaut did try hitting a golf ball on a spacewalk, but in the video it's not clear if he did go backwards. His bones and muscles probably absorbed most of the recoil.
On land the recoil between the ball and club head will mostly be absorbed by the feet and legs, but in a player with poor balance he could fall slightly back. I've seen plenty of players fall slightly backwards after hitting the ball.
In space you do not need balance. Apart from Newton's Third Law you also have Newton's First Law which is Inertia, which nobody understands.
I think you are confusing a Velikovsky ('Worlds in Collision') type moment when a large object collides with another large object producing a shift in momentum and position with a small interaction between a ball and a golf club.

Some real science here:

Whatever an astronaut has done is in reality is irrelevant, as to match the described theoretical scenario, both ball and astronaut would have to be perfectly stationary prior to starting the experiment, and not have any external forces acting on them, such as the astronauts movement system and tether to the spacecraft, plus in practice one or both objects will already be moving.

Not sure what you mean by real science, that's exactly the same principle that I described, just without theoretical numbers added to it, and taken further to go beyond just club and ball but to include golfer and ground. The difference is on earth, the club is connected to the golfer who is connected to the ground, in space the golfer is connected to nothing, so the club creates a force on the ball, the ball creates a force on the club, the club creates a force on the golfer and the golfer moves. On Earth, the same happens except the force interaction between the golfer and ground means the golfer stays in the same location and more of the energy from the impact goes into the ball. Fallin backwards or balance has nothing to do with it.

Inertia is fully understood, a body at motion or rest will want to stay in that state, unless an external force acts on it.

I have to question, are you really trying to learn how to hit the ball further? You quote lots of random unrelated scientific principles without a full understanding of them, get caught up in irrelevancies, and disagree with everything anyone else has said. Whilst you have to question things to learn, your line of questioning is tangential at best. If you really do what to hit the ball further, my advice is to just get out there and swing a club, forget the science, both the actual and pseudo varieties.

 

[stefanovic]

Inertia is fully understood, a body at motion or rest will want to stay in that state, unless an external force acts on it.

There's more to it than that. As Richard Feynman stated 'The Law of Inertia has no known origin'.
When you hit a golf ball or even pick a flower you influence the furthest star. That also goes for the number 48 bus. So everything has external forces acting on them. That's the way the universe is and we need to know an awful lot more. An understanding of dark energy and dark matter is at least required.

I have to question, are you really trying to learn how to hit the ball further? You quote lots of random unrelated scientific principles without a full understanding of them, get caught up in irrelevancies, and disagree with everything anyone else has said. Whilst you have to question things to learn, your line of questioning is tangential at best. If you really do what to hit the ball further, my advice is to just get out there and swing a club, forget the science, both the actual and pseudo varieties.

I have tried all parts of the anatomy to find power after having played golf for over 30 years. I have tried all the advice ever given to me, such as the left shoulder, the right hand, the wrists, the arms, the legs, the back, the buttocks, weight transfer, and so on.
I still cannot hit far. My average drive cannot be more than 170 yards. A sand wedge I cannot hit more than 40 yards. Yet I have played with folk who can hit the driver 250 yards and the sand iron 100 yards. I don't try to swing fast or slow. My grip is the standard Vardon overlap which I've had checked several times. My body is supple - I can do 200 yoga postures. I can do 20 push-ups easily.
I once had a handicap of 10 which was a bit flattering, but for me the power is still a mystery. Maybe I simply don't have any. I'm not a big guy. My BMI is measured at 22 and percentage body fat is 17.

 

[Dibby]

There's more to it than that. As Richard Feynman stated 'The Law of Inertia has no known origin'.
When you hit a golf ball or even pick a flower you influence the furthest star. That also goes for the number 48 bus. So everything has external forces acting on them. That's the way the universe is and we need to know an awful lot more. An understanding of dark energy and dark matter is at least required.


I have tried all parts of the anatomy to find power after having played golf for over 30 years. I have tried all the advice ever given to me, such as the left shoulder, the right hand, the wrists, the arms, the legs, the back, the buttocks, weight transfer, and so on.
I still cannot hit far. My average drive cannot be more than 170 yards. A sand wedge I cannot hit more than 40 yards. Yet I have played with folk who can hit the driver 250 yards and the sand iron 100 yards. I don't try to swing fast or slow. My grip is the standard Vardon overlap which I've had checked several times. My body is supple - I can do 200 yoga postures. I can do 20 push-ups easily.
I once had a handicap of 10 which was a bit flattering, but for me the power is still a mystery. Maybe I simply don't have any. I'm not a big guy. My BMI is measured at 22 and percentage body fat is 17.

So, how or why does not knowing the origin of inertia have any impact on how inertia relates to the golf swing? The fact we know what inertia does is enough, we don't need to know it's origin for any application whatsoever with golf. That's at best an irrelevance and at worst a distraction from something actually productive.

Perhaps you have the wrong parents? Although to be honest, whilst not everyone is destined to be a power hitter, I find it hard to believe most people without a disability could not at least hit it 200 yards with a driver.

As per my previous post, my advice is to just go out there and do it. You say you don't swing the club fast, the ball is not going to go far if you don't swing the club fast! Just go out there and rip it, and then work on controlling the speed.

If you want any more detailed specifics, I advise you to see a golf pro or strength and conditioning pro, as it's impossible to give specific advice without assessing your current state.

 

[stefanovic]

A few years ago I went into a famous golf store to enquire about a better driver. They gave me three to try on the simulator and told me my driving distance was only 165 yards. To their annoyance I declined to buy.
I remember the big hitting Fred Couples saying if you try and hit it hard it never works. He accumulated energy with the double wrist cock, or whatever it was.
So I think it's more to do with conservation of energy during the swing. The high handicapper releases energy too quickly and the result is always disappointing.
I'm going to go with a rhythmic swing and a wider arc to try and build a bit of extra distance.

 

[Dibby]

A few years ago I went into a famous golf store to enquire about a better driver. They gave me three to try on the simulator and told me my driving distance was only 165 yards. To their annoyance I declined to buy.
I remember the big hitting Fred Couples saying if you try and hit it hard it never works. He accumulated energy with the double wrist cock, or whatever it was.
So I think it's more to do with conservation of energy during the swing. The high handicapper releases energy too quickly and the result is always disappointing.
I'm going to go with a rhythmic swing and a wider arc to try and build a bit of extra distance.

Feel and real, when most people hit it hard they get out of sequence, it's not the force that makes the swing bad, it's that people change the swing to try and add more force.

It's true that worse players reach peak swing speed sooner than pros, but that peak swing speed is generally lower than the pros peak swing speed.

 

[Roops]

Seem to remember seeing a vid where it was determined that it's 85% arms, 15% the rest of the body. Interestingly Erik Van Rooyen on the Open Zone last night was saying that when he wants to hit it further, he doesn't try and hit it hard from the top. The real acceleration is at the bottom of the arc and there was no mention of coiling the torso or the legs generating power etc etc.

 

[bobmac]

If anyone wants to compare their swing with Brooks Koepka , check where your shaft is at this point with the arms just below horizontal

 

[Dibby]

Seem to remember seeing a vid where it was determined that it's 85% arms, 15% the rest of the body. Interestingly Erik Van Rooyen on the Open Zone last night was saying that when he wants to hit it further, he doesn't try and hit it hard from the top. The real acceleration is at the bottom of the arc and there was no mention of coiling the torso or the legs generating power etc etc.

I wouldn't disagree with that. Most people can swing their arms quite fast, for arguments sake let's say 95mph. fewer people can coordinate that 95mph arm swing so that it happens in perfect synchronisation with their 19mph hip turn. Thats the difference between those who have a swing speed of 95mph vs 114mph, or about 50 yards of distance off the driver. Massively simplified, but you see the point?

Most people are already maxed out on the speed they can swing their arms, so trying to add the final 1% to this motion is less productive than working on the areas that are nowhere near the maximum.

 

[stefanovic]

I don't think you should try to copy the swings of the top players. You don't want an injury or in the worst case a replacement joint. Your body is the most valuable thing you have, the product of millions of years of evolution.
Golf is not always how far you hit the ball. What is more important is the position you are in to play the next shot. Play the percentages. It's probably better to be 150 yards from the pin on the fairway than 100 yards away in the rough.
What I think is very difficult with arm speed is to square the club head back up to the ball.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

For me it's Connectivity. When I lose connectivity my swing and distance go to pot.

 

[Dibby]

I don't think you should try to copy the swings of the top players. You don't want an injury or in the worst case a replacement joint. Your body is the most valuable thing you have, the product of millions of years of evolution.
Golf is not always how far you hit the ball. What is more important is the position you are in to play the next shot. Play the percentages. It's probably better to be 150 yards from the pin on the fairway than 100 yards away in the rough.
What I think is very difficult with arm speed is to square the club head back up to the ball.

Actually, the strokes gained stat tells us the opposite. This is why bomb and gouge is so popular on tour, from a scoring outcome, statistically, it is better to be closer to the hole and with a worse lie than it is to be short in the fairway.

 

[duncan mackie]

I don't think you should try to copy the swings of the top players. You don't want an injury or in the worst case a replacement joint. Your body is the most valuable thing you have, the product of millions of years of evolution.
Golf is not always how far you hit the ball. What is more important is the position you are in to play the next shot. Play the percentages. It's probably better to be 150 yards from the pin on the fairway than 100 yards away in the rough.
What I think is very difficult with arm speed is to square the club head back up to the ball.

But....the answers you are getting and the points being made relate to the question you asked to start this thread.

I don't think you would have appreciated your second paragraph as an early response to the question you posed.

 

[pendodave]

I don't think you should try to copy the swings of the top players. You don't want an injury or in the worst case a replacement joint. Your body is the most valuable thing you have, the product of millions of years of evolution.
Golf is not always how far you hit the ball. What is more important is the position you are in to play the next shot. Play the percentages. It's probably better to be 150 yards from the pin on the fairway than 100 yards away in the rough.
What I think is very difficult with arm speed is to square the club head back up to the ball.

Luckily, millions of years of evolution means its pretty difficult to hurt yourself. If it was, we'd have been extinct for quite a long while by now...