Where does the power come from in the swing?

[stefanovic]

As I'm a bit dazed of reading all the conflicting information on this I'm just wondering if any of the advice ever worked for you?
Grip, body turn, club lag, distance through resistance, shoulder and hip turn, going to the gym.
I tried all these and the end result was I still couldn't hit the ball > 200 yards.
Sorry if I sound frustrated but did I miss something?
I think it's only down to natural ability.

 

[Dibby]

Partly it's natural ability - why can some people jump higher, run faster, lift heavier things than others (assuming both have equal raining history)?

Partly it's a combination of everything else you mention, you can't change your natural ability, but you can improve your technique, strength, and mobility.

 

[pokerjoke]

I would say there are so many factors
Why can a 6ft powerhouse hit 200 yards and a 9 stone wet through guy hit 300 yards.

Technique and timing maybe?

 

[Foxholer]

Partly it's natural ability - why can some people jump higher, run faster, lift heavier things than others (assuming both have equal raining history)?

Partly it's a combination of everything else you mention, you can't change your natural ability, but you can improve your technique, strength, and mobility.

Above is the complete answer!

No need for any further comment!

@OP. If you are not improving, then you are not employing exercises/drills correctly/effectively. A decent Pro will be able to spot the reason(s) for this immediately! In any case, you could devote more effort to improve your short game. Gaining 10 yards on drives and or irons pales significantly compared with getting 3 or 4 more chips/pitches into gimmee range and/or making a few more putts per round!

 

[Dasit]

It is similar to throwing a ball. Some people can just throw a ball really far and some people can't.

Sequence of energy transfer, from using your legs bodys arms hands to create maximum whip when releasing

 

[stefanovic]

I would say there are so many factors
Why can a 6ft powerhouse hit 200 yards and a 9 stone wet through guy hit 300 yards.

That's what I was trying to establish. It seems to prove the powerhouse guy has no obvious advantage over the small person.
I believe the 6 foot Faldo could not hit the ball as far as the 5 foot 4 Woosnam. It could be partly strength, balance and centre of gravity.
If I am to believe Hogan who was about the same dimensions as me then the power comes from a sequence which starts with the hands, then the arms, then the shoulders, then the hips initiating the downswing, followed by a lift off with the right heel.
This suggests a mental coordination which others have tried to copy but can never replicate. So I guess there must be some part of the brain involved in this.

 

[duncan mackie]

You need to start at the beginning in your considerations - you are in danger of mixing up the what and how.

Distance comes from ball speed and launch conditions. For any given ball speed there will be launch conditions that deliver the greatest carry, and launch and ground conditions to deliver the greatest overall distance.
Accepting that the question becomes what delivers the ball speed?
The answer is that clubhead speed plus strike factors (closely related to launch conditions but with subtle differences) do that. Putting aside strike factors as a seperate, manageable and reasonably easy to comprehend set, you can focus on clubhead speed.
Clubhead speed is a very simple thing as well. At it's absolute simplest it represents the distance the club head travels in a given time.
If you consider the whole distance the club travels (downswing) it become clear that the larger the arc the head travels in the shortest time the faster it will have travelled as an average. However the only time the clubhead speed is translated into ball speed is at impact...so the equation becomes even simpler still.
You cannot move your hands particularily quickly when swinging them (you can in other motions but they aren't relevant), you need the clubhead to travel faster than your hands through a process of releasing it. That process starts as a mechanical, passive, one ie you can achieve a certain clubhead speed from a fundamentally mechanical process without any significant 'power'.
In reality through the application of the right process at the right time, and precision in the impact area, it's relatively straightforward to create 100mph club head speed at impact and a ball speed approaching 150mph with a driver.
The application of a little muscle may move that to 110/160.
Seriously well trained muscles can mover that up to the 120 or 125 area....and further if you are also able to increase the underlying mechanics (usually through long levers) but you put at risk the maintenance of your impact conditions.

In conclusion, the application of muscles and power has the least impact on the distance a player can get the ball to travel of nearly all the various factors in play.
Timing alone will deliver more clubhead speed than most handicap golfer ever achieve at impact; and impact conditions will convert it into the distances they never see in their playing career (let alone consistently).

 

[stefanovic]

you are in danger of mixing up the what and how.

At least I never mix up the why and how.

Clubhead speed is a very simple thing as well.

I seem to recall it was Trevino who said if he knew a way to bottle up clubhead speed he would make more money than Mr. C/C (famous fizzy drink).

At it's absolute simplest it represents the distance the club head travels in a given time.

That is correct. Speed is distance over time. But acceleration of the clubhead requires the concept of gravity.

If you consider the whole distance the club travels (downswing) it become clear that the larger the arc the head travels in the shortest time the faster it will have travelled as an average. However the only time the clubhead speed is translated into ball speed is at impact...so the equation becomes even simpler still.

What equation? I assume you mean Newton's Force = Mass x Acceleration. This is not simple at all.
1) We now know that mass does not exist.
2) Acceleration is now treated in terms of the equivalence principle.

... That process starts as a mechanical, passive, one ie you can achieve a certain clubhead speed from a fundamentally mechanical process without any significant 'power'.

Lost me. What is a mechanical passive process?
I accept that power is just a metaphor being used here. But power does require a transfer of energy from somewhere, to the clubhead, which in turn activates a repulsion between the electons in the clubhead and the ball.

In reality through the application of the right process at the right time, and precision in the impact area, it's relatively straightforward to create 100mph club head speed at impact and a ball speed approaching 150mph with a driver.

I don't see that as being straight forward at all.

The application of a little muscle may move that to 110/160.

Which of the 800 muscles in the body should we use?

... but you put at risk the maintenance of your impact conditions.

Pardon?

... impact conditions will convert it into the distances they never see in their playing career (let alone consistently).

Whut?

 

[bobmac]

Stand with your feet together and with a 7 iron, try and hit a ball off a tee moving only your wrists.
Lower half locked, arms pinned to your chest and no weight transfer.
Once you can hit it 30-50 yds, introduce a LITTLE arm movement, then a bit of hip turn keeping the same effort in the wrists.
Then rest.
Gradually build to a half swing then full swing.

Gaining 10 yards on drives and or irons pales significantly compared with getting 3 or 4 more chips/pitches into gimmee range and/or making a few more putts per round!

Except he will most likely gain 50-60 yards which I'm sure you'll agree is significant.

 

[Foxholer]

...
Except he will most likely gain 50-60 yards which I'm sure you'll agree is significant.

A brave (if qualified) prediction! Can you guarantee that? And the same for me? My current Driver carry distance is 185-ish, so overall just a tad/few yards longer.

Good drill though!

 

[clubchamp98]

At least I never mix up the why and how.


I seem to recall it was Trevino who said if he knew a way to bottle up clubhead speed he would make more money than Mr. C/C (famous fizzy drink).


That is correct. Speed is distance over time. But acceleration of the clubhead requires the concept of gravity.


What equation? I assume you mean Newton's Force = Mass x Acceleration. This is not simple at all.
1) We now know that mass does not exist.
2) Acceleration is now treated in terms of the equivalence principle.


Lost me. What is a mechanical passive process?
I accept that power is just a metaphor being used here. But power does require a transfer of energy from somewhere, to the clubhead, which in turn activates a repulsion between the electons in the clubhead and the ball.


I don't see that as being straight forward at all.


Which of the 800 muscles in the body should we use?


Pardon?


Whut?

Jeez.

 

[bobmac]

A brave (if qualified) prediction! Can you guarantee that? And the same for me? My current Driver carry distance is 185-ish, so overall just a tad/few yards longer.

Good drill though!

If the OP can only hit his driver 180-190 total, I would expect to be able to increase that to 230 minimum with that drill. Certainly a lot more than the 10 yard gain you suggested.
And out of interest, how do you know his short game isn't brilliant as he didn't complain about it.

 

[Backache]

Stand with your feet together and with a 7 iron, try and hit a ball off a tee moving only your wrists.
Lower half locked, arms pinned to your chest and no weight transfer.
Once you can hit it 30-50 yds, introduce a LITTLE arm movement, then a bit of hip turn keeping the same effort in the wrists.
Then rest.
Gradually build to a half swing then full swing.



Except he will most likely gain 50-60 yards which I'm sure you'll agree is significant.

Matter of interest what kind of time course would this be over?

 

[bobmac]

Matter of interest what kind of time course would this be over?

Difficult to say as each individual will learn at different rates, some practice more than others and some are stronger than others.
Having said that, I would expect to see an improvement after 2-3 sessions at the range but as the OP has some health issues it may take a little longer.

 

[Tashyboy]

Stand with your feet together and with a 7 iron, try and hit a ball off a tee moving only your wrists.
Lower half locked, arms pinned to your chest and no weight transfer.
Once you can hit it 30-50 yds, introduce a LITTLE arm movement, then a bit of hip turn keeping the same effort in the wrists.
Then rest.
Gradually build to a half swing then full swing.



Except he will most likely gain 50-60 yards which I'm sure you'll agree is significant.

This with bells on it. ^^^^
The OPs frustration is mine. In essence and for arguements sake my swing speed is 90 mph. I hit across the ball with a fade. It does not kill the distance the ball has travelled by 10 yds, it is more, a lot more . I had a lesson which explained what I was doing wrong. I played last week, I hit one which was sweet, no faster swing speed but everything clicked. It hit the middle of the fairway and ran and ran. I was 15 yds behind the big hitter in our group. I stood at my ball and looked back I was 80 plus yards in front of where my drive was two days earlier. And the week before and the week before.

Now I don't want to get technical, but during my lesson I was shown a video on you tube where Peter Cowan explains where power comes from. This is how I understood it.
As the arms come back from the take away. As the body turns, the power is generated from the top of the body twisting around and around down the body to the feet. On the down swing the power starts to be released in an opposite direction from the feet up through the legs, body, shoulders, arms and bang. In essence the coil helps to deliver the power. Now this is where hold my hands up coz I am sure there are other factors involved, ( inc straight left arm) coz the pro who gave me the lesson has txt me to say we need to build on that.
Furthermore I was coming across the ball which was a distance killer so I have had to change my swing angle, couple with the body turn. Is there a simple answer. Hell no, but I now have three drills which A, help with my swing path. B, also helps with a body turn to deliver power.

 

[Foxholer]

If the OP can only hit his driver 180-190 total, I would expect to be able to increase that to 230 minimum with that drill. Certainly a lot more than the 10 yard gain you suggested.
...

Then I shall try exactly (only?) what you say, expecting (as you state) to gain 40-50 yards extra driving distance!

It does, however (at least the way you have written it/I have read it) seem to purely (only?) increase the amount of wrist through the strike. This appears to be at odds with Tashy's description of the Cowan 'spiral staircase' approach, that involves all elements of the body in the swing - or at least the legs and bod In the Cowan approach, the arms and wrists are virtually ignored/an afterthought that simply happen as a result of the 'uncoil'!

...And out of interest, how do you know his short game isn't brilliant as he didn't complain about it.

Er... Where did I actually comment on the quality of his (current) short game? Was it not '... the benefits of getting 3 or 4 MORE chips/pitches within gimmee range...'?

 

[stefanovic]

Now I don't want to get technical, but ... during my lesson I was shown a video on you tube where Peter Cowan explains where power comes from. This is how I understood it.
As the arms come back from the take away. As the body turns, the power is generated from the top of the body twisting around and around down the body to the feet. On the down swing the power starts to be released in an opposite direction from the feet up through the legs, body, shoulders, arms and bang. In essence the coil helps to deliver the power.

Sort of a centrifugal force which moves down then up? Lost me again. I know Faldo talked about this but for the average player who does not have the gadgets or the personal instruction I think you'll be concentrating too much on getting this to work and then forget to hit the ball. What initiates the backswing and the downswing here?

 

[Backache]

Difficult to say as each individual will learn at different rates, some practice more than others and some are stronger than others.
Having said that, I would expect to see an improvement after 2-3 sessions at the range but as the OP has some health issues it may take a little longer.

Mmm had a shot at the wrist stroke today up at the range, seemed to work thanks. Are there any videos on line of how to build it up? I would be interested in doing this as I've become a very short hitter over the last few years.

 

[bobmac]

Are there any videos on line of how to build it up? I would be interested in doing this as I've become a very short hitter over the last few years.

Not that I know of, just a drill I used in lessons.
Just move on when you feel comfortable with the results

 

[Backache]

Not that I know of, just a drill I used in lessons.
Just move on when you feel comfortable with the results

OK cheers