What Is the penalty, machplay.

[Doh]

Played winter league match today BB match play all square on the fifteenth short par 4. One of their players goes for the green over a lateral water hazard the ball ends up on the bank at the far end of the Hazard everyone else is fine no issues.

There is placing through the green in place, the player who went for the green finds his ball plugged in the bank he picks it up and cleans it and place's it down i then call a penalty because i notice he is in the hazard, could i find the rule could I eck. So would one of you be kind enough to enlighten me.

 

[duncan mackie]

one shot penalty under 18-2a as long as the ball was re-buried in it's pitchmark before being played

if the ball was played from the cleaned and placed position it would be loss of hole as the genreal penalty under 18-2.

no doubt your committee will have said the same thing when you referred your claim?

 

[Matty]

It will depend on the exact wording of the local rule for winter but if it clearly states 'through the green' then touching the ball in a hazard is not permitted.

I think rule 21 would apply and that player would have a penalty of 1 stroke added to their score. Happy to be corrected though

 

[rosecott]

There is placing through the green in place, the player who went for the green finds his ball plugged in the bank he picks it up and cleans it and place's it down i then call a penalty because i notice he is in the hazard, could i find the rule could I eck. So would one of you be kind enough to enlighten me.

You needed to look in Section II Definitions:

Through the Green

“Through the green’’ is the whole area of the course except:

a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and

b. All hazards on the course.

 

[Doh]

The local rule says "placing through the green is in place." The player did not replace the ball he just said I'm out of the hole so picked his ball up.

 

[Colin L]

Doh, since it was 4 ball better ball, the penalty if the player did not replace the ball in exactly the same lie (embedded again as Duncan points out) would be that he was disqualified from the hole for the breach of 18-2 but his partner would still be in the game.

Our posts have crossed - the player was correct in saying he was out of the hole.

 

[SammmeBee]

no doubt your committee will have said the same thing when you referred your claim?

Unlikely for the Committee to leave the Clubhouse on a day like today!!

 

[rulefan]

Unlikely for the Committee to leave the Clubhouse on a day like today!!

The committee could remain at the bar. They don't have to rule until the end of the round.

 

[Doh]

Thank you chaps, sound advice as usual.

Rick

 

[SammmeBee]

The committee could remain at the bar. They don't have to rule until the end of the round.

How does that work then......

 

[Colin L]

Have a look at Rule 2-5
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-02/

Briefly, Player A thinks his opponent, Player B, should have incurred a penalty when B doesn't. A should inform B, before teeing off at the next hole ( or leaving the last green if the event happens during the last hole) that he is going to make a claim and on what grounds. B will obviously declare his score at that hole without a penalty and the outcome of the hole is decided on that. If there isn't a Committee member around at the time, it will make a ruling after the match. If it rules that B did indeed incur a penalty, the outcome of the hole and of the match will be adjusted accordingly. If it rules there was no penalty, the score at the hole and the outcome of the match are unchanged.

 

[woody69]

The local rule says "placing through the green is in place." The player did not replace the ball he just said I'm out of the hole so picked his ball up.

I'm confused. Did he say he was out of the hole because you called a penalty, or did he just pick up his ball say he was out of the hole? I assume it was the former, but he should have just taken a 1 shot penalty? Is that right?

 

[Colin L]

It sounds as if he decided just to pick up because he accepted he was going to incur a penalty. Yes, at the point where he had placed his ball and was challenged by doh, he could have replaced his ball in the hazard and carried on with a one stroke penalty (Rule 18-2a). He would then have had the choice of playing the embedded ball as it lay in the hazard or proceeding under Rule 26-1a or 26-1b.

 

[bladeplayer]

Have a look at Rule 2-5
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-02/

Briefly, Player A thinks his opponent, Player B, should have incurred a penalty when B doesn't. A should inform B, before teeing off at the next hole ( or leaving the last green if the event happens during the last hole) that he is going to make a claim and on what grounds. B will obviously declare his score at that hole without a penalty and the outcome of the hole is decided on that. If there isn't a Committee member around at the time, it will make a ruling after the match. If it rules that B did indeed incur a penalty, the outcome of the hole and of the match will be adjusted accordingly. If it rules there was no penalty, the score at the hole and the outcome of the match are unchanged.

Not at all questioning the rule or decision Colin just wondering how this is practical , say it happens on the 17th .. B was 2 up after 16 .. & without the penalty he would halve the 17th therefore 2& 1 win ..in we go ... with the penalty tho he loses the hole & is now 1 up playing the last.. do both players just agree to play the last as if match was still alive or do they walk in and check ?

say it was further out , like 5 up on the 14th and this happened ..
Thanks

 

[rulefan]

say it happens on the 17th .. B was 2 up after 16 .. & without the penalty he would halve the 17th therefore 2& 1 win ..in we go ... with the penalty tho he loses the hole & is now 1 up playing the last.. do both players just agree to play the last as if match was still alive or do they walk in and check ?

say it was further out , like 5 up on the 14th and this happened ..
Thanks

Yes, they play the match out unless winning or losing other holes settles the match anyway.

eg all square after 14. Disputed situation crops up on 15th. Claim not resolved. Score is either all square or player X is 1 up.
X wins 16th. X is 1 up or 2 up with 2 to play.
X wins 17th. X is either 2 up or 3 up with 1 to play. So wins match anyway.

 

[MashieNiblick]

It sounds as if he decided just to pick up because he accepted he was going to incur a penalty. Yes, at the point where he had placed his ball and was challenged by doh, he could have replaced his ball in the hazard and carried on with a one stroke penalty (Rule 18-2a). He would then have had the choice of playing the embedded ball as it lay in the hazard or proceeding under Rule 26-1a or 26-1b.

Colin, just to clarify, after having wrongly lifted and placed the ball and been advised that he is not entitled to free relief, does the player have the option of continuing directly under Rule 26-1 without having to replace the ball first? In that case is there any penalty under 18-2?

Was trying to find something but could only come up with 25-1b/26 Player Unaware Ball in Water Hazard Takes Relief from Interference by Burrowing Animal Hole, which has some parrallels but not sure it is entirely analagous.

Cheers.

 

[Colin L]

Thanks for that, Mashie Niblick. I was being a bit careless in my answer.

If he replaces his ball and plays it as it lies he cannot escape the penalty under 18-2. Rule 20-6, however, allows him to correct the error of dropping or placing in the wrong place or not in accordance with the Rules without penalty provided he has not made a stroke at the ball - which he hasn't. So if he chooses to continue correctly under 26-1, he does so without the 18-2 penalty, incurring only the 26-1 penalty.

Hope that's right this time!

 

[MashieNiblick]

Thanks Colin. That does sound right.

 

[Doh]

It sounds as if he decided just to pick up because he accepted he was going to incur a penalty. Yes, at the point where he had placed his ball and was challenged by doh, he could have replaced his ball in the hazard and carried on with a one stroke penalty (Rule 18-2a). He would then have had the choice of playing the embedded ball as it lay in the hazard or proceeding under Rule 26-1a or 26-1b.

This is right Colin.

 

[Colin L]

Thanks - see post #17 where I hope I've correctly sorted out proceeding under Rule 26-1 (relief from a water hazard) without a penalty for moving the ball.