LanDog
Journeyman Pro
That's a good point which I forgot.
Clarke's captaincy reminds me of Tom Watson's in a lot of ways
Was Clarke a good captain?
- Thread starter LanDog
- Start date
That's a good point which I forgot.
Clarke's captaincy reminds me of Tom Watson's in a lot of ways
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
The foursomes that McIlroy and Pieters were playing was announced on the Friday evening before the Saturday they were playing.
This was at 01:30 our time on the sat morning
https://twitter.com/rydercupeurope/status/782013297394679808
What they did do was decide how they were going to play on the morning on the tee in regards the ball and what tee they were going to use but they knew in plenty of time they were playing foursomes together
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Hendy
Tour Rookie
Think he did a fair job with the players he had.
Maybe could have changed the wild card picks but all in all. We had the weaker team on paper at the start and even before a ball was hit the book makers had Europe 2/1 in a two horse race. You don't even need to know. Anything about golf to know Europe was a big out side bet.
Maybe could have changed the wild card picks but all in all. We had the weaker team on paper at the start and even before a ball was hit the book makers had Europe 2/1 in a two horse race. You don't even need to know. Anything about golf to know Europe was a big out side bet.
ExRabbit
Club Champion
On the whole I don't think he was, but he was sort of up against it from the start because 5 rookies had qualified by rights already.
He decided to pick two veterans and one rookie - he might have been scared of picking more rookies because if they lost he would be called out for having too many.
But I think that was a weak decision - the veterans he chose had no recent form, so the better choice was to pick at least two rookies.
Donald was recently playing better than either Westwood or Kaymer and would be a great foursomes player with one of the rookies.
Knox was in great form and Clarke could have even been brave and picked Beef - he is loved in the USA and has just gone out and got his card there, so showing form and guts too.
But he didn't, and then stuck by his plan to have experience alongside inexperience, even when the experienced players were not performing - which I think was his biggest mistake.
Not a terrible captain, but not a good one either in my opinion.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Catch 22 and a no-win scenario for him really
Choose the rookies who were a bit mince in recent form or choose the experience duo from his own captain’s picks who were also a bit mince recently, either way he was probably on a loser
He was essentially putting our mince up against their ‘mashed potato’ and while that can be a pretty good recipe on its own I feel it would have been better with Beef & Knoxo
Choose the rookies who were a bit mince in recent form or choose the experience duo from his own captain’s picks who were also a bit mince recently, either way he was probably on a loser
He was essentially putting our mince up against their ‘mashed potato’ and while that can be a pretty good recipe on its own I feel it would have been better with Beef & Knoxo
A round of applause for those analogies from Slab :clap:
Spear-Chucker
Tour Rookie
6/10. Was always on the back foot facing a highly energised, very well prepared and skilled generation of Americans; probably the best team we've seen them put up for several cup's. He gave up two years of his life and gave it a decent shot.
It wasn't a bad idea to select some immense and valuable experience in Westwood to shepherd the rookies but it was a mistake to invite Kaymer who has been off the boil. Knox all day long there, Daz.
The Spaniards should have played all day Saturday and but other than that it was what it was.
So much couldn't have been controlled though; Rose suffering with an icy putter, Willet not really turning up, Snedeker returning to top form, Koepka's very good rookie performance - it goes on and all these small elements made the difference.
What are we left with? A memorable event, renewed American interest and an inquest which should hopefully push the Euro process on to some improvements for next time. It's just a game.
It wasn't a bad idea to select some immense and valuable experience in Westwood to shepherd the rookies but it was a mistake to invite Kaymer who has been off the boil. Knox all day long there, Daz.
The Spaniards should have played all day Saturday and but other than that it was what it was.
So much couldn't have been controlled though; Rose suffering with an icy putter, Willet not really turning up, Snedeker returning to top form, Koepka's very good rookie performance - it goes on and all these small elements made the difference.
What are we left with? A memorable event, renewed American interest and an inquest which should hopefully push the Euro process on to some improvements for next time. It's just a game.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Ta muchly
I really do think that the trouble for Clarke was he really couldn’t win, and it was the out of sorts qualified rookies that were responsible for his predicament
With a couple (at least) of mandatory qualified rookies well out of form he was faced with either picking more rookies (those in-form) and how does that help with the qualified rookies who must play at least twice at some point. Or pick out of form experienced guys (at least there’s a theoretical benefit to the qualified rookies) & who may just find some form in that cauldron
Only a captain really willing to take a big punt would go with the former approach to get folks like Knox, Beef, Lowry etc in the team
Westwood was likely an old pals pick but it still had a rational to it as did Kaymer
You sure can’t blame them for winning tournaments earlier in the year but it was the qualification & current form of the Fitzpatrick/Willetts etc that kinda forced DC to go with 2 (marginal form) experienced picks
In doing so you now have over half the team who are either
• Rookies
• Out of form
• Returning from injury
• All of the above
Add to that a talisman leader who only just remembered how to putt a month ago and a possible fear factor of selecting Fitz for any session
I think Fitz needed a ‘sure thing’ banker point on Saturday to stand a chance of Sunday but didn't get that against one of the apparent weaker US pairs (& going out last single told him everything he needed to know about DC’s faith in him)
Once those qualification cards were dealt DC just had to run with it
Who’s to blame?
Certainly not Fitzpatrick or Willett, they just took their wins (you might as well blame Spieth for not winning the Masters!) I think its just one of those seasons where lots of rookies took their chances, but... we might see more of them as the best in the world restrict their calendars to only the big events/payouts, so team Europe need to figure out a better plan for introducing erratic form rookies to the RC
U
User62651
Guest
The politics of the bias against Euroepan players based on the PGA tour not being as eligible to qualify as those on the European Tour should change for RC selection imo. This kind of blackmail of trying to force players to play more on the European Tour (Casey, Knox etc) with the potential reward of a RC spot despite getting paid less doesn't work. Consequently the European RC Team is not as strong as it could be but the European Tour have their agenda of protecting their own tour as best they can and I doubt that will change unfortunately.
And to answer the OPs' question, no not a good captain for me. Picking Westwood as a buddy and to a lesser degree Kaymer was wrong given their dire form and ranking. Selections on Saturday were misjudged too.
And to answer the OPs' question, no not a good captain for me. Picking Westwood as a buddy and to a lesser degree Kaymer was wrong given their dire form and ranking. Selections on Saturday were misjudged too.
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D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
The ET should protect themselves - they are the ones that run the European RC team so it's very valid and fair for them to have people representing them to be members of their tour. The amount of events that they need to play is very small and being a non member has had very little affect over the years - allow people to leave the ET and still play for Europe in the Ryder Cup would crippled the ET and create an even big imbalance towards the PGA
If you remove the qualifying criteria the top players wouldn't bother to come back to any event in Europe bar the majors - do you think that's the best way to help golf in Europe and to call it "blackmail" is ludicrous
There is no bias against any player - and I'm unsure how it's decided that "it doesn't work"
To play for Europe you need to be a member of their tour - it's not a hardship and it's only 5 events out of 37 events - just 5
U
User62651
Guest
BUT could be argued when Samuel Ryder donated his cup for this event many moons ago there was no 'Tours' in the equation for who got selected, European Tour have hijacked this Cup to bolster their own economic agenda. For me the RC shouldn't be anything to do with any tour you may be affiliated to or play on, just what your nationality is as the qualifying criteria.....as Samuel Ryder intended.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Well many moons ago Europe wasn't playing in the Ryder Cup , also players were unable to fly across the Atlantic in 6 hours and were unable to play in many events around the world
For many decades now the European Tour have administered the Ryder Cup European team - who else would do it anyway ?
If you remove the need to be a ET member then all the top players would just leave the ET to chase the money - do you think that's a good thing for the future of golf in Europe ? It's already a struggle getting events in U.K. And Europe to attract top players - do you think that would get any better if you remove the tour member status ?
No one is "forced" or blackmailed into taking up membership - if they want to represent Europe then support the ET , not one single Ryder Cup has suffered because a player was eligible - not one.
U
User62651
Guest
I understand your view but re the part in bold they already are and will. European Tour punched above its weigth for a while in the 80's & 90's but it's returned to a much lower level since and is a feeder tour to the PGA Tour whether we like it or not. For some players like Casey and perhaps more recently Knox playing week to week on the PGA Tour outweighs the chance of making the RC team once every 2 years and why not? Earning the most money and reducing traveling to spend more time at home are valid reasons for wanting to play in the US as opposed to all over the world with the European Tour. I think the US tour and lifestyle appeals more as players get into their 30's and are more settled with families etc. Alas players in their mid 30's tend to be at their peak as golfers so it backfires on Europe's RC team re qualifying criteria.
Piece
Tour Winner
D
Deleted member 1147
Guest
One thing to note about not choosing Rafa Cabrera-Bello on saturday pm, were they not 4 down against Spieth and Reed when the pm draw was done?
Hardly looked like a great pairing at that time! A perfect case of hindsight having 20:20 vision
Hardly looked like a great pairing at that time! A perfect case of hindsight having 20:20 vision
Birdie maker
Newbie
Completely agree with Hovis. When I heard Clarke had picked Westwood I thought, wtf, why, he's won once since 2012 from memory, we know he's not great at putting and we know the greens are going to be slick, I believe he picked him cause they are best mates and Westfie wanted to beat faldo's points record.
jamielaing
Q-School Graduate
Realistically there is a lot of hindsight involved here however I thought from the start that this was dead and buried the minute the picks were made. Westwood and Kaymer not good enough and I would take passionate rookies over old boys along for the ride.
This was confirmed by his selection process for the Friday/Saturday. It was obvious Kaymer and Westwood were not able to cut the mustard, so why did they keep getting put out? 1 point out of 7 matches is not good enough and, having seen them play one round they should have been benched to minimise the damage. Splitting up the Spaniards is hindsight but you have to question splitting up teams that were firing well together.
Ultimately Knox should have been there. Beef or Lowry too. Experience means very little these days and I have to wonder how many experienced leaders we are expected to have. Between Rory, Rose, Garcia, Stenson I think we have that role covered. Again, if it comes down to experience and passion mcdowell and poulter should be picked every year however they have to have some form. Unfortunately though, both of them would have contributed a whole lot more to the team than Westwood and Kaymer did at the weekend.
Clarke's management didn't lose us the Ryder Cup, it just made it even more inevitable. Very poor and I'm disappointed as I thought he was better than that. He seemed like the kid that never gets a game but is just happy to be there for the fun of it.
This was confirmed by his selection process for the Friday/Saturday. It was obvious Kaymer and Westwood were not able to cut the mustard, so why did they keep getting put out? 1 point out of 7 matches is not good enough and, having seen them play one round they should have been benched to minimise the damage. Splitting up the Spaniards is hindsight but you have to question splitting up teams that were firing well together.
Ultimately Knox should have been there. Beef or Lowry too. Experience means very little these days and I have to wonder how many experienced leaders we are expected to have. Between Rory, Rose, Garcia, Stenson I think we have that role covered. Again, if it comes down to experience and passion mcdowell and poulter should be picked every year however they have to have some form. Unfortunately though, both of them would have contributed a whole lot more to the team than Westwood and Kaymer did at the weekend.
Clarke's management didn't lose us the Ryder Cup, it just made it even more inevitable. Very poor and I'm disappointed as I thought he was better than that. He seemed like the kid that never gets a game but is just happy to be there for the fun of it.
HankMarvin
Tour Rookie
Some very good points made there, more then Westwood & Kaymer got put together for sure. Westwood's singles record is shocking and he had good partners in his doubles that have carried is backside over the years.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
Not beef or Lowry. It was too soon for Beef who really had 2 or 3 good events this year and Lowry has been seriously out of form since the US Open. Neither in the hunt for me at all.
Knox should have been there though along with someone like Luiten or Molinari or of that ilk, experience with some recent form
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Discounting Pieters and RC-B, who were huge successes, it wasn't a good RC for Europe's rookies.
The other 4 managed a single point between them - the same number of points as the 2 experienced picks.
Doesn't this suggest that having more rookies would have been a bigger gamble than going with a couple of experienced players..?
OK, the gamble of going with experience didn't pay off and, with hindsight, you can see the errors DC made. But, bearing in mind DC is taking advice from his VCs, it can be argued that when the decisions were made, they were the right ones. The Spanish boys - 4 down..that doesn't invoke a good feeling that they're playing well.
This is not to say that DC was perfect - far from it. But he, and the experienced picks, are getting the flak when there were a lot of rookies and/or qualified players who didn't show up...
Europe simply didn't play well enough and the addition of any 2 other players wouldnt have swing the tide our way.
