Ross61
Challenge Tour Pro
Until all courses are properly rated and not basically down to total yardage I believe SSS is flawed.
US GA Handicapping system.
- Thread starter seochris
- Start date
seochris
Challenge Tour Pro
But doesn't the CSS change with every competition that's played? Due to weather and wind etc. and competitors aggregate scores?
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Do you know of any affiliated courses which haven't been properly rated?
Ross61
Challenge Tour Pro
I'm talking about courses that have not been rated by the latest standards set by Congu. I believe this project is not due to be completed until 2022. Unless you can advise me differently.
rosecott
Money List Winner
You are correct that total yardage is the basic starting point for rating - and why wouldn't it be - but many other factors are taken into account.
Big_G
Assistant Pro
I'd love to see it introduced over here, especially the slope rating system, it seems to work ok as most other places use it
I was told by a friend with greater knowledge of these things than I, the reason the powers that be over here won't introduce it, is that they didn't think of it
I was told by a friend with greater knowledge of these things than I, the reason the powers that be over here won't introduce it, is that they didn't think of it
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
As far as I'm aware, the new process is just a 'modernisation' program as courses change over a period of time with new bunkers, tees etc.
Also, as far as I'm aware, all courses affiliated to a county golf union have been rated in the past to establish a SSS.
Ethan
Money List Winner
There are two elements of the USGA system. One is the way that handicap (aka indexes) are calculated, 95% of the best 10 of the last 20 scores in the US, and CSS and incremental changes in the UK. The other is the slope system which adjusts for different course ratings (aka SSS). I agree that the USGA system opens itself to sandbagging, but that is more related to inclusion of causal games and large numbers of people with non-golf club handicaps rather than being a property of the statistical methodology. You can also make it slower moving, by being based on the best 15 or 30, say. In general, though the UK syatem has more drag on the handicap. In the US you could play 20 rounds in a short period and your handicap could entirely change.
I think that despite the apparent differences, the first part operates fairly similarly, in the sense that the pivot point is around the 75th percentile of your scores. Slope seems like a reasonable idea to allow handicaps to travel better.
The other issue, and it isn't a property of the system per se, is that course ratings seem to be a bit inflated in the US, and this lowers handicaps a bit artificially.
Before saying we should change the system, I think we need to better understand what we would want to achieve.
I think that despite the apparent differences, the first part operates fairly similarly, in the sense that the pivot point is around the 75th percentile of your scores. Slope seems like a reasonable idea to allow handicaps to travel better.
The other issue, and it isn't a property of the system per se, is that course ratings seem to be a bit inflated in the US, and this lowers handicaps a bit artificially.
Before saying we should change the system, I think we need to better understand what we would want to achieve.
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Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
That other hybrid method probably originates from Mexico 👍
That aside, don't think our system Is perfect, but changes are in hand to make it better. When I shot 84 last month I wish we had been using the US system but when I shoot 105. I am glad I don't.
Ethan
Money List Winner
One of the reasons that US handicaps are based on casual rounds as well as competitions is that many US golfers are not members of a golf club and never play proper competitions. It is perfectly possible to use either the UK or US statistical methodology on either all rounds or just competition rounds. We can separate the questions.
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seochris
Challenge Tour Pro
Firstly I believe that the US system is more transparent as it does allow fellow competitors to view entered scores if they believe that there is some manipulation going on.
Secondly the faster handicap changes are more reflective of one's current playing form.
Third is seems to be simpler to administer and understand. A few months ago I tried to understand how CSS scores were arrived at and lost the will to live.
No doubt that there are as usual pros and cons to both but I do believe the USGA has the edge having played under both systems.
Ethan
Money List Winner
Firstly: That has nothing to do with the technical aspects of the statistical methodology. That is an administrative manner. My club posts every players score for every hole for every handicap card, as well as trends, patterns and comparisons with the field.
Secondly. Is that a good thing? Prior to the Pebble Beach Pro-Am each year, here are a bunch of guys whose handicaps go up from 5 or 6 to 12 or 13 in a short space of time. Anyway, you can change the gearing of either system to slow or speed up handicap changes.
Third. Have you figured out how slope is calculated? I don't know or don't care how CSS is calculated, except that it varies SSS to take (partial) account of the scores that day.
TheJezster
Tour Rookie
What would be the actual point of changing?
As Ethan said above, what would we look to gain from it and what do we want? Only then can you start looking at solutions otherwise its meaningless change.
As Ethan said above, what would we look to gain from it and what do we want? Only then can you start looking at solutions otherwise its meaningless change.
seochris
Challenge Tour Pro
Firstly: your club may do but they are not required to....and I am happy to see that.
Secondly: Yes I think it is a good thing....You can manipulate any system...as for Pebble Beach they would just gave to start a bit earlier under CONGU as Chris Evans did!
Third: No but then I dont know how the SSS is either and nor did the Secretary at Fortrose as he has tried to get it changed on countless occasions.
Ethan
Money List Winner
Firstly: your club may do but they are not required to....and I am happy to see that.
Secondly: Yes I think it is a good thing....You can manipulate any system...as for Pebble Beach they would just gave to start a bit earlier under CONGU as Chris Evans did!
Third: No but then I dont know how the SSS is either and nor did the Secretary at Fortrose as he has tried to get it changed on countless occasions.
I do recall the Chris Evans issue.
Any system can be geared to slow or speed the rate of change of handicaps. Make each reduction below CSS larger than current and handicaps will drop faster. Make the increase larger and they will rise faster. Make the US handicap based on the best 20 or 40 and they will move more slowly. Mke it 5 or the last 10 and they will change faster. In both systems you can put in an additional review if there are more than X reductions or increases in a certain denominator of cards, or you can put in maximum reductions or increases in a period of time.
Seems to me the differences between the US and UK boil down to slope and the inclusion of causal/bounce games. In my opinion, slope seems reasonable but I have concerns about inclusion of causal/bounce games, mainly to do with an equally casual approach to rules in those rounds. I have played in the US with guys who took a mulligan, moved every ball to a preferred lie and then at the end said the round would help their index!
daverollo
Assistant Pro
I think both systems have merit in there own ways.
I like the faster pace at which the US system can change which far better reflects someones current form, but as already stated can be open to abuse. I like the slope system that can better reflect how 'tough/easy' a course is and handicaps adjusted accordingly.
One thing I am not clear on is how the US system copes with poor weather conditions and higher average scores. I remember years ago playing in an open at Scotscraig, shot 2 or 3 over my handicap, but it was still good enough for a top 5 finish as the CSS was very high due to the high wind and rain. I think I ended up with a 0.2 reduction to handicap as a result.
If that happened with the US system I don't think the outcome would be the same? when in reality I shot the lights out in terms of how well I played.
I like the faster pace at which the US system can change which far better reflects someones current form, but as already stated can be open to abuse. I like the slope system that can better reflect how 'tough/easy' a course is and handicaps adjusted accordingly.
One thing I am not clear on is how the US system copes with poor weather conditions and higher average scores. I remember years ago playing in an open at Scotscraig, shot 2 or 3 over my handicap, but it was still good enough for a top 5 finish as the CSS was very high due to the high wind and rain. I think I ended up with a 0.2 reduction to handicap as a result.
If that happened with the US system I don't think the outcome would be the same? when in reality I shot the lights out in terms of how well I played.
Ethan
Money List Winner
The US system doesn't really take weather or playing conditions into account. The course rating is the course rating, like SSS. It doesn't vary and since most scores posted are casual rounds they don't have a set of other scores to use to calibrate the daily playing difficulty.
In the past, there was an allowance against handicap if you took a handicap from a course with one SSS to another course with a different SSS. That may have been GUI only, though.
It seems a pity that the USGA system does not compensate for poor weather or course conditions with a CSS. Sometimes 32 points or 4 over handicap can be a good score! As it stands USGA will favour fair weather golfers.
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upsidedown
Tour Winner
Having played under the NZ version of it I'm all for it. 
The slope system and handicap index works well and despite my reservations when I first started playing under it i soon realised it's a lot easier to understand and administer than CONGU.
Yes there will be folks who manipulate the indexes but that's true of all systems. As regards weather , it rankled at first but reconciled it by being able to shoot a low score in bounce game and use it for handicap.
Today played in a inter club comp and shot level par off the whites, in NZ a nice little cut here just a slap on the back.
PS Reckon USGA will give you a handicap 1.5 -2 lower than CONGU one on my NZ experiences , but that could just be the weather :lol:
The slope system and handicap index works well and despite my reservations when I first started playing under it i soon realised it's a lot easier to understand and administer than CONGU.
Yes there will be folks who manipulate the indexes but that's true of all systems. As regards weather , it rankled at first but reconciled it by being able to shoot a low score in bounce game and use it for handicap.
Today played in a inter club comp and shot level par off the whites, in NZ a nice little cut here just a slap on the back.
PS Reckon USGA will give you a handicap 1.5 -2 lower than CONGU one on my NZ experiences , but that could just be the weather :lol:
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Foxholer
Blackballed
Actually, quit the opposite!
It's quite likely (hopeful even!) that the 105 wouldn't have been included in the scores that the contribute to a USGA handicap.
An as for the purpose of changing...I would have thought that the benefits of a 'universal' handicap would have made that purpose pretty obvious! Or is the fact that there are those that wonder simply confirmation that there are still golfers who play (with) few outside of their own group at their own club!