Turn vs Slide

[Foxholer]

Yes.

If you consider someone with early extension their hips effectively thrust forwards towards the ball so the left hip is never going to clear, it doesn't matter that they then rotate, their left hip never cleared so often their weight is actually moving towards the ball (and some even step forwards after the strike).

Surely moving the overall balance backwards (behind you in Gareth's post) is just as bad - though less common.

Overall balance in that axis (right angle to target) shouldn't really change - the hip movement shifting about as much weight backwards as has been/is being moved forwards by the down-swing.

A weight shift backwards would require a flail - moving upper body/weight forward - to actually hit the ball

Neither 'instruction' is certainly not advocating moving weight backwards!

 

[JustOne]

Surely moving the overall balance backwards is just as bad - though less common.

Overall balance in that axis (right angle to target) shouldn't really change - the hip movement shifting about as much weight backwards as has been/is being moved forwards by the down-swing.

A weight shift backwards would require a flail - moving upper body/weight forward - to actually hit the ball

Neither 'instruction' is certainly not advocating moving weight backwards!

try this....

Stand with your back/bum to a wall, raise your right leg.... and stand on your left HEEL.

 

[Foxholer]

try this....

Stand with your back/bum to a wall, raise your right leg.... and stand on your left HEEL.

Done that.

What does that prove?

 

[JustOne]

Done that.

What does that prove?

You fall forwards because your balance point has moved. To stay balanced we have to position our weight evenly over the balance point, the balance point has moved so our weight also does. It's not much but it definitely moves backwards or else we'll fall forwards as that test shows. In a thread where we're discussing 2 inches of hip slide then a 1 or 2 inch weight shift is just as relevant.

Our weight starts on the balls of our feet but it certainly doesn't end up there, if it's on the left heel then the weight has moved AWAY from the target line.

 

[Foxholer]

You fall forwards because your balance point has moved. To stay balanced we have to position our weight evenly over the balance point, the balance point has moved so our weight also does. It's not much but it definitely moves backwards or else we'll fall forwards as that test shows. In a thread where we're discussing 2 inches of hip slide then a 1 or 2 inch weight shift is just as relevant.

Our weight starts on the balls of our feet but it certainly doesn't end up there, if it's on the left heel then the weight has moved AWAY from the target line.

Fair enough.

I think the words 'behind you' are the problem.

Notwithstanding the fact that it is impossible to do so - think about that - I think 'slightly onto the left heel' would be better.

An obvious sign of a Cricket based golf swing is the Drive where the weight moves forward and out - to start a run!

Btw. Your statement about balance points and weight is rubbish!

 

[JustOne]

Fair enough.

Btw. Your statement about balance points and weight is rubbish!

Indeed. I couldn't think of another way to describe the concept of 'stacking' or standing directly over your balance point (where most of your weight will be focused)

 

[Foxholer]

You fall forwards because your balance point has moved. To stay balanced we have to position our weight evenly over the balance point, the balance point has moved so our weight also does. It's not much but it definitely moves backwards or else we'll fall forwards as that test shows. In a thread where we're discussing 2 inches of hip slide then a 1 or 2 inch weight shift is just as relevant.

Our weight starts on the balls of our feet but it certainly doesn't end up there, if it's on the left heel then the weight has moved AWAY from the target line.

Indeed. I couldn't think of another way to describe the concept of 'stacking' or standing directly over your balance point (where most of your weight will be focused)

The concept of balance points is fine, provided it's about where you are and where you want to be. - therefore how you get there.

But to say that a balance point has moved so the weight has to follow to stay balanced is rubbish. It's always the body that moves! And the body can support, to a certain extent, an incorrect balance by using muscles to pull back against the tendency to topple and, more efficiently, the feet as a brace. That effect is unconscious, but can be demonstrated using the air-filled balance pads - which remove the effect of the feet. In fact, I seem to remember GolfGuru using them to help someone cure their EE!

You only fall forwards because you have moved your body (therefore balance point) sufficiently that muscle strength and bracing cannot support the offset.

I'd suggest you describe address, top of back-swing and impact position balance points and the best way of getting from one to the other.

One other thing. The unconscious brain is smart - but not very forward thinking. If it determines that an adjustment needs to happen, it generally uses the most efficient method to solve the immediate problem. That might not be the correct thing to do in the overall scheme of things - and it may have to make another adjustment to correct the consequences of its first one. I believe 'muscle memory' is really about overcoming the unconscious brain's adjustment reaction.

 

[JustOne]

But to say that a balance point has moved so the weight has to follow to stay balanced is rubbish. It's always the body that moves!

I thought I was saying that the body moves, then you interjected with your contribution....

Gareth said.. "Would that mean you're effectivley moving your weight left and behind you"
To which I replied.. "Yes"

... and that's when you stepped in

 

[Foxholer]

I thought I was saying that the body moves,

Here's the bit that's rubbish!

To stay balanced we have to position our weight evenly over the balance point, the balance point has moved so our weight also does.

If you can explain how it's possible to move a balance point without moving weight, you've probably invented teleporting!

Cause/Effect really, but important all the same.

 

[JustOne]

Cause/Effect really, but important all the same.

Indeed and I agree I should have said it the other way round,... the weight is shifting so we find a new balance point.

As I said, I thought that's what I was saying until you jumped in :ears:




I was trying to explain it as you would to a child, so that everyone understands it.... that's how I write all of my posts!!!! :clap::clap::clap::clap: LOLOL

 

[Foxholer]

Indeed and I agree I should have said it the other way round,... the weight is shifting so we find a new balance point.

As I said, I thought that's what I was saying until you jumped in :ears:

I was trying to explain it as you would to a child, so that everyone understands it.... that's how I write all of my posts!!!! :clap::clap::clap::clap: LOLOL

Even more important to get the words correct then.

Here's an interesting article/ad that indicates where the weight should be at the key stages.

Doesn't mention being on the heels at impact or follow through that you imply should happen either (the 1 or 2 inch move). Again mentions the (im)balance pads.

http://www.scienceandmotion.com/download/BalanceLab/BalanceLabPresentation.pdf

PS. What age were your kids aware of 'interjection'?

 

[JustOne]

Thanks, I've read that before.

I was just saying to someone "Watch Foxy come back with some force plate data...." :rofl:

Here's a snippet from a page you probably skipped on Google...

If you really want to develop power, you need to transfer your weight properly. Computerized testing of elite players shows they each produce the same weight-transfer pattern, moving it toward the front of the left foot as they start the downswing and to the left heel at impact.

This ideal weight shift allows these players to deliver the clubhead squarely into the ball at impact as they rotate powerfully around the front foot.

Many amateurs mistakenly slide their hips too much toward the target in an effort to shift their weight, but this inhibits their ability to rotate, leading to inconsistent ball striking. By allowing your weight to move initially toward your left toes and then into your left heel, you'll be in position to correctly pivot around your left leg and flush it every time.

There is some other force plate data out there which shows more weight in the left heel at impact and thru to the finish than that advert thingy you posted, and I'm sure I could find lots of pictures with golfers having their left toes off the ground as they pose their 'finish'.

If you want to tell people they should slide their hips towards the target feel free to :thup:



EDIT:

And.... seeing as you're in the 'splitting hairs mode'... force plates are pressure not weight

 

[Foxholer]

And.... seeing as you're in the 'splitting hairs mode'... force plates are pressure not weight

Happy to accept that then - my SAM stuff just indicated differently

Better tell the manufacturers, not me, they should be called Pressure Plates then. I'm happy with them being Force Plates as to measure Pressure, they have to they measure Force - Weight being the force!

 

[JustOne]

Happy to accept that then - my SAM stuff just indicated differently

Better tell the manufacturers, not me, they should be called Pressure Plates then. I'm happy with them being Force Plates as to measure Pressure, they have to they measure Force - Weight being the force!

Put you your hand flat on a table, press down with your index finger, it's applying more pressure, did your hand just get heavier?

Are we really doing this? :rofl:

 

[Foxholer]

Put you your hand flat on a table, press down with your index finger, it's applying more pressure, did your hand just get heavier?

Are we really doing this? :rofl:

Seems like you need to learn some basic Physics.

Yes, more pressure. Now you tell me why!

I'll give you a hint... P = F/A
So to increase pressure you have 2 choices. Increase Force or Decrease Area over which it's applied (or both of course). Which one did you think pressing down with your index finger does.

Is the language simple enough for you? (Or a child! ).

 

[JustOne]

Are we really doing this? :rofl:

I guess we are!!! :rofl:

Could you explain in child like language what your point is, or indeed what you're trying to say? the force plates measure a force, they don't measure weight, if you stand on one leg you weigh the SAME as you do on two legs, and if you happen to be on force plates the readings will change... the weight hasn't. But we can change our weight distribution (hold out an arm) or our balance point (again, hold out an arm). We can also apply a muscular force (again this is measured by force plates) so much so that you can press down and make your finger exert a force of 20lbs if you want, your finger, indeed your whole body weight, hasn't increased. We can also use external forces (such as gravity) so when we jump on something eg: on or off a set of scales we apply differing pressure, again our weight hasn't changed, there's lots of stuff going on.

Again, if you want to get people to slide their hips towards the target feel free, other than that (in that I'm completely lost what your point is and whether you're even agreeing or disagreeing with my point), I'm out.

See you in the morning mate :thup: :thup: :thup:

 

[Foxholer]

I guess we are!!! :rofl:

Could you explain in child like language what your point is

You had a couple of errors in your explanation of balance points and weight that I pointed out.

You've demonstrated a poor knowledge of the Physics of Force (including Weight) and Pressure.

Otherwise, all good.:thup:

Simple enough?

 

[One Planer]

Back to my question :rofl:

I did a little reading on the subject and, well, opinion is some what divided, espcially on Thesandtrap.

Found this by Tom Watson folating about on t'web

The transition from backswing to downswing is crucial to generating power and accuracy. The key is to start the downswing with the lower body.

In the best swings the lower body starts forward while the upper body is still turning back. The left hip turns toward the target as the shoulders continue to coil. That takes terrific timing and a lot of practice.

The average golfer should think more about initiating the downswing by rotating the left hip and simultaneously moving to the left heel--this is more pronounced if you've let the heel come off the ground in the backswing (as I recommend). Flaring out your left foot a bit at address will help your hip turn.

Fred Couples is an excellent example of someone who gets the lower body moving before the upper body. His swing is so smooth it's easy to spot.

Also, when you start down, your left shoulder should stay on the plane you established at address. So many amateurs start the downswing by turning the shoulders toward the target too early, causing the dreaded over-the-top move that results in pulls or slices.

Practice starting the downswing in slow motion to get the feel of the lower body leading and the shoulders staying back.

Seems concise.

 

[Foxholer]

Seems concise.

I agree - as I did in post 25.

I'd suggest you try to avoid getting obsessed with moving weight around - in either way direction. TW's paragraph starting 'the average golfer...' seems perfect

Here's another reference from a site I find pretty good (if over techy at times) - with a reference to a Shaun Clement (who I can't bear to watch) swing thought that seems a good one for combatting EE.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm

It's actually imbedded in this one http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing-original.htm

Just remember it's 'into the heel' not 'behind you'.

 

[One Planer]

I agree - as I did in post 25.

I'd suggest you try to avoid getting obsessed with moving weight around - in either way direction. TW's paragraph starting 'the average golfer...' seems perfect

Here's another reference from a site I find pretty good (if over techy at times) - with a reference to a Shaun Clement (who I can't bear to watch) swing thought that seems a good one for combatting EE.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm

It's actually imbedded in this one http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing-original.htm

Just remember it's 'into the heel' not 'behind you'.

My weight shift in the back swing, is pretty mininal. I don't 'sway' off the ball very much. If anything about 1/4 a head width (According to my pro).

With how Tom Watson describes the movement, and after attempting last night, it's very similar to what I was doing.

If I try and slide my weight forward, I get a very poor hip turn, only just past address. As a result, I run short of space to swing through. This, IMO, causes a throw to try and make space for the club, OTT and a shot that goes left all day. I may be completley wrong, but that's how it 'feels'.

If I focus on rotating my weight forward, as described in the above article, my arms drop nicely into the slot as they have plenty of space. My shoulders at impact are also in a better position (Square/very fractionally open).

I suppose everyone is different depending on, as you say, how much the move away from the ball inthe backswing, and subsequent movement forward.