Touching the green with putter

[Fish]

I was challenged yesterday when I was attending the flag for my partner and said to him that I thought the line he needed was 12" to the right of the hole and as I said that I duly placed my putter on the green!

I thought I knew this rule and believed that you had to press down into the green to be accused of testing the surface, but now I've looked it up it seems that the other person was right, although there is a slight contradiction when looking at 2 rules, so, can I have 100% clarification please.

I have found Rule 16-1 which states the following (see bold)

Touching Line of Putt
The line of putt must not be touched except:


(i) the player may remove loose impediments, provided he does not press anything down;
(ii) the player may place the club in front of the ball when addressing it, provided he does not press anything down;
(iii) in measuring – Rule 18-6;
(iv) in lifting or replacing the ball – Rule 16-1b;
(v) in pressing down a ball-marker;
(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green – Rule 16-1c; and
(vii) in removing movable obstructions – Rule 24-1.
(Indicating line for putting on putting green – see Rule 8-2b)

So, at this time I thought I was correct, as it states I can touch the green if indicating line for putting, however, I then linked to Rule 8-2 - Indicating Line of Play and that states (in bold)

b. On the Putting Green


When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched.


I find the 2 rules a little conflicting but I accept that the second 1 is much more specific and indeed you should not place your putter on the green to indicate to a partner the putting line, but, how many of us have done this or do so all the time?

Every days a learning day!

 

[Region3]

I am reading the first section of that as "indicating line for putting on putting green" is not part of the list of exceptions as it doesn't have a number before it ie. (viii), and is only there to show you which other rule it comes under.

It being in brackets also hints to me that it is only listed there to point you somewhere else.

 

[Smiffy]

I pulled my mate up for this on the 18th at Crowborough one day. He was on the oppositions side.
He didn't like it much as we then won, 1up.

 

[Fish]

I am reading the first section of that as "indicating line for putting on putting green" is not part of the list of exceptions as it doesn't have a number before it ie. (viii), and is only there to show you which other rule it comes under.

It being in brackets also hints to me that it is only listed there to point you somewhere else.

I agree and spotted that myself, I know the rules are not to be interpreted but I was looking for a little bit of light but knew I had it wrong, it's going to hurt telling him he was right

 

[Colin L]

Hmmm. You’ve got tangled up a little.

Firstly, set aside testing the surface of the green. That’s a separate matter and what you did had nothing to do with that rule.

You showed your partner the line for his putt by touching the green. Rule 8-2b which you found prohibits touching anywhere on the green to indicate the line for putting. That means that can indicate a point to somewhere on the green and say to your partner, “Aim here” but you mustn’t touch the ground in so doing.

Rule 16-1 prohibits touching the line of putt except in particular circumstances. You were misled into thinking the statement in brackets (Indicating line for putting on putting green - see Rule 8-2b) was one of the exceptions. If it had been, it would have been numbered (viii) and there would not have been a line space between it and the one above. What you have is common throughout the rule book: a reference to where to look for the rule on a related matter. It really is saying “There is another situation where you aren’t allowed to touch the green. You need to take a look at Rule 8-2b to find out about indicating the line for putting.”

But that’s what you did: you looked up Rule 8-2b and discovered that what you had done was a breach. So it worked!

 

[Fish]

Hmmm. You’ve got tangled up a little.

Firstly, set aside testing the surface of the green. That’s a separate matter and what you did had nothing to do with that rule.

You showed your partner the line for his putt by touching the green. Rule 8-2b which you found prohibits touching anywhere on the green to indicate the line for putting. That means that can indicate a point to somewhere on the green and say to your partner, “Aim here” but you mustn’t touch the ground in so doing.

Rule 16-1 prohibits touching the line of putt except in particular circumstances. You were misled into thinking the statement in brackets (Indicating line for putting on putting green - see Rule 8-2b) was one of the exceptions. If it had been, it would have been numbered (viii) and there would not have been a line space between it and the one above. What you have is common throughout the rule book: a reference to where to look for the rule on a related matter. It really is saying “There is another situation where you aren’t allowed to touch the green. You need to take a look at Rule 8-2b to find out about indicating the line for putting.”

But that’s what you did: you looked up Rule 8-2b and discovered that what you had done was a breach. So it worked!

Yes I untangled my incorrect view of it eventually by following the associated links, I just had it in my head because I had read so many times that you could do things on the green as long as you didn't press into the surface so it gave the impression you were testing the green, I had never come across not being able to place (touch) the green with my putter when telling my partner to aim at a certain point, I've seen so many players on here and at my club do it, so I'll be letting them know also, so you lot reading this, take note :smirk:

 

[Colin L]

I hope it is helpful to show the difference between the line of putt which Rule 16-1 deals with and the line for putting which Rule 8-2b is about.

The line of putt is defined in the rules as the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green. This might be anything from a straight line if the surface is flat or a wavy line if the green is undulating. The line of putt will always end at the hole.

The line for putting is not defined in the rules but I understand it clearly to mean the straight line from the ball to an aiming point, the direction in which you have to start your ball off in order that it ends up at the hole.

The two lines start from the same place, where the ball lies, but will diverge at some point if there is a side to side slope. The diagram below show the two lines for a putt which has a right to left borrow. (Click on it for the full size)

 

[scott.cufc]

What if you were putting from the fringe (off the green)?

This happened to some mates of mine this year in a fourball knockout when they came up against the walking rule book (every club has one). My pals won the hole after this, but while walking to next tee their opponent said hole was lost as one of my pals had touched the green with his putter to indicate a line (the player putting on was stood over a sprinkler, so was definitely not on the green). My pals gave them the hole, after it got a bit heated. Made for a quiet match after that, which Mr RuleBook and his partner won. :/

 

[rosecott]

I was challenged yesterday when I was attending the flag for my partner and said to him that I thought the line he needed was 12" to the right of the hole and as I said that I duly placed my putter on the green!

Is this a Christmas fairy story - Fish telling someone the line of a putt?

 

[backwoodsman]

What if you were putting from the fringe (off the green)?

This happened to some mates of mine this year in a fourball knockout when they came up against the walking rule book (every club has one). My pals won the hole after this, but while walking to next tee their opponent said hole was lost as one of my pals had touched the green with his putter to indicate a line (the player putting on was stood over a sprinkler, so was definitely not on the green). My pals gave them the hole, after it got a bit heated. Made for a quiet match after that, which Mr RuleBook and his partner won. :/

8/2b says if your "ball is on the putting green" - so you if your ball is on the fringe, it doesn't apply

 

[Colin L]

I hope it is helpful to show the difference between the line of putt which Rule 16-1 deals with and the line for putting which Rule 8-2b is about.

The line of putt is defined in the rules as the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green. This might be anything from a straight line if the surface is flat or a wavy line if the green is undulating. The line of putt will always end at the hole.

The line for putting is not defined in the rules but I understand it clearly to mean the straight line from the ball to an aiming point, the direction in which you have to start your ball off in order that it ends up at the hole.

The two lines start from the same place, where the ball lies, but will diverge at some point if there is a side to side slope. The diagram below show the two lines for a putt which has a right to left borrow. (Click on it for the full size)

View attachment 17226

Since the thread has been reopened, I see that I should point out that from 1st January the term line for putting will disappear from the rulebook and my careful distinction between that and line of putt will be redundant. Rule 8-2b will read:

b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the line of putt may be indicated before, but not during, the stroke by the player, his partner or either of their caddies; in doing so the putting green must not be touched A mark must not be placed anywhere for the purpose of indicating a line of putt

 

[upsidedown]

On a slightly different tangent, if a fellow competitor was about to move a leave on your line is it ok to say " No could you leave that there please " The inference being it will aid your alignment for the stroke in the same way as a different shade of grass might.

 

[Crow]

On a slightly different tangent, if a fellow competitor was about to move a leave on your line is it ok to say " No could you leave that there please " The inference being it will aid your alignment for the stroke in the same way as a different shade of grass might.

I believe that this is okay, in fact I think you can have the leaf replaced if they do move it.

 

[Colin L]

I believe that this is okay, in fact I think you can have the leaf replaced if they do move it.

Right on both counts. It’s to do with your right to the lie and line of play/putt which you had when your ball came to rest. See Decision 23-1/10
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-23,d23-1-10

 

[rulefan]

........ believed that you had to press down into the green to be accused of testing the surface, ....

Colin alluded to this but didn't complete the message. Simply pressing down with a putter is not testing as specified in the rule

16-1 d. Testing Surface
During the stipulated round, a player must not test the surface of any putting green by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.

However, you may not press anything down if you are removing a loose impediment

 

[Fish]

Colin alluded to this but didn't complete the message. Simply pressing down with a putter is not testing as specified in the rule

16-1 d. Testing Surface
During the stipulated round, a player must not test the surface of any putting green by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.

However, you may not press anything down if you are removing a loose impediment

Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Colin alluded to this but didn't complete the message. Simply pressing down with a putter is not testing as specified in the rule

16-1 d. Testing Surface
During the stipulated round, a player must not test the surface of any putting green by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.

However, you may not press anything down if you are removing a loose impediment

But you can't press down on your intended line ?

 

[upsidedown]

I believe that this is okay, in fact I think you can have the leaf replaced if they do move it.

Right on both counts. It’s to do with your right to the lie and line of play/putt which you had when your ball came to rest. See Decision 23-1/10
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-23,d23-1-10

Cheers :thup:

 

[MashieNiblick]

What if you were putting from the fringe (off the green)?

This happened to some mates of mine this year in a fourball knockout when they came up against the walking rule book (every club has one). My pals won the hole after this, but while walking to next tee their opponent said hole was lost as one of my pals had touched the green with his putter to indicate a line (the player putting on was stood over a sprinkler, so was definitely not on the green). My pals gave them the hole, after it got a bit heated. Made for a quiet match after that, which Mr RuleBook and his partner won. :/

8/2b says if your "ball is on the putting green" - so you if your ball is on the fringe, it doesn't apply

In case it helps the situation when playing from off the green is also confirmed in the following decision

8-2b/3 Caddie Touches Putting Green to Indicate Line of Play Before Player Chips from Off Green

Q. The caddie of a player who is preparing to play a chip shot from off the putting green touches the green with a club to indicate the line of play. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. The prohibition against touching the putting green to indicate the line of play applies only if the player's ball lies on the putting green.

 

[rulefan]

But you can't press down on your intended line ?

Well if you can't touch the line of putt then you obviously can't press down.
But I was only talking about the aspect of testing. Colin and others have dealt with touching.