The great loft rip off

[CrapHacker]

As described by RGDave and HTL in another thread.

Well I knew clubs were all getting delofted, but I didn't realise how bad it had got.

According to RGDave in response to a comment by HTL ;

They are the worst offender with this great loft rip-off.

'They' being Wilson Staff.

So I looked up the Mizuno Mx200 specs, coz I know they are a brand/set highly respected by many on this forum.

And got something loooking a little like this ;

Which compares with the new specs of the Wilson staff Di9 ;

Crikey oh blimey oh riley.

How many people knew it was that rediculous ?

And for all of those of us not using bright shiny knew kit. I thought I'd compare that with my fantastic, but not overly new Titleist 962s ;

And I've got S300 shafts ! No wonder I can't keep up with even Bob McShorty, the short hitting short ass from Shortsville-on-sea.

Now I know a lot of the more experienced guys on the forum probably knew exactly how far this situation has gone. But there must be hundreds ( thousands ? ) of relatively new players that are being misinformed when they're buying new, shiny kit.

But does it matter ? Should this be something that GM should bring to the fore ? Should manufacturers be more open about it ? Should there be set standards so players making new purchases knew where they stand ?

Or is it just a new way of the manufacturers being able to get more money out of us idiot punters ? I mean, I've got a set of irons that go from 22* - 56* ( excluding a gap wedge ). But if I buy a new set, I'll probably be offered 4I - PW, which means I'll need a hybrid or two, and, even if I buy Mizunos, at least 3 wedges. Just to hit the same distances ?

Finally. Does new technology work at all ? Or is it purely down to club loft and shaft length ?

Didn't realise what a can of worms this all is.

 

[Smiffy]

Kind of makes a mockery of the numbers they stamp on clubs doesn't it?
I agree that there should be an industry standard.

 

[madandra]

I have said this before but the only way to avoid this is by stamping LOFTS and not numbers on the sole of each club.

Another hint of delofting is by the number of manufacturers offering hybrids instead of 3 and 4 irons because as hitting a Wolson 3 iron is like an old fashioned 1 or 2 iron and apparently GOD cant hit them.

 

[Imurg]

Instead of numbers just stamp the loft there instead.

At the end of the day its largely down to us. Joe Hacker who craves more distance. We're not satisfied with being able to hit a "7" iron 140 yards (for instance) we want to hit it 150 or 160 because its more like the distance the pro golfer gets. So the companies de-loft the club to give us what we want.

The obvious issue with stronger lofts is that it makes the club more difficult to hit. That's why we've all - well most - got hybrids in the bag. Because its easier to hit a 21 degree hybrid than a 21 degree 3-iron. So, logically, it must be easier to hit a 36 degree 7 iron than a 32 degree 7-iron.

I don't buy my clubs by looking at the number stamped on the sole. I look at the loft, how far I can hit it and whether it fits the rest of the set.

Obviously shaft length is going to have a bearing as well. Look at most TM drivers (and a lot of others). Their shafts can be up to an inch longer than "standard" maybe more. But with longer shafts comes loss of control. The Wilson's shafts are 3/4 inch longer than the same number Titleist/Mizuno iron. That shows the custom fit route has some worth. You've got the choice of the Di9's or the MX200's but not only are the lofts strong, the shafts are longer too. And some of the lies are the same, some are not.

I doubt that GM would want to run an article about this as they would be effectively slagging off some makes against others and GM doesn't do that. The Wilson's are perfectly good clubs and you can't say that one club is better than another - only that it works better for you. But I do think Joe Hacker should be better informed by the manufacturers as to the differences in lofts/shafts that can make a club unplayable for some but a Godsend for others.

I don't think you can standardise lofts but buyers should be made aware of the differences. I could probably hit a 22 degree 3 iron but an 18 degree one? Forget it.

 

[colint]

It's an intersting debate and thanks for bringing it up. I'll be buying new irons when the new models come out at the end of the year and wouldn't have even considered looking at the lofts, I'd probably have fallen into the how does the 7 iron go trap. It's the dishonesty that winds me up, if the manufacturers said our lofts are x because of y then fair enough, but they rely on mugs like me falling for the distance performance.

I suppose the only way to demo clubs now is based on performance across the set. Can I hit them from 180 yards in, ignoring what number is on the club.

 

[jammydodger]

Good thread CH , interesting to see those loft comparisons. I didnt realise they were so different , thought maybe one or two degrees max but that is an eye opener. I've had a look at my mp57 lofts and i'm happy that they are what they should be with the pw ending up at 47*

Not sure how anyone could play with those Titleist 962's though

 

[TWM]

I think the answer is to get the irons you like best. Forget about lofts and just find out far each club goes. Does it matter whether you are using an 8 or PW to get on the green?

 

[John_Findlay]

A 42.5 degree Pitching Wedge ?! Blimey. I see why we need 4 wedges now. I believe my Mizuno MP30 PW is 47 degrees. So the Wilson's a 9 iron?

 

[bobmac]

If you have had your clubs for a while, I would suggest you get your club pro to check your lofts, they may have moved , especially forged clubs.
Get the info off the web and check they are what they should be.
Forged clubs, can be 'tweaked' 3-4 degrees and cast clubs 1-2 degrees. But please, dont try it yourself at home.

 

[CrapHacker]

A 42.5 degree Pitching Wedge ?! Blimey. I see why we need 4 wedges now. I believe my Mizuno MP30 PW is 47 degrees. So the Wilson's a 9 iron?

According to their site Mizono MP67, MP62, MP57, MP52 irons all have 47* PWs, but the clubs aimed at the ( dare I say it ) more 'normal' golfer, MX200 included, all have a 45* PW.

The 6I difference is 31* ( MP ranges ) to 29* ( MX ranges ). Does this have any influence over how the MX200 fans judged the clubs when they had them C/F ?

 

[THJahar]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but don't the pro's have all their clubs delofted?
So it would bring the wilson clubs close or equal to the lofts that pro's use.
Since we have to use 'something' as a benchmark I would compare the loft of my clubs to that of a pro and be able to compare my distances to a pro's distance. But if we stick to the traditional lofts I would have nothing to compare it too?

 

[DCB]

Mizuno have varied loft on similar clubs in the past, the MX23 Forged had a 6I loft of 29° and the MX15 Cast hada loft of 30° The MX25 had a 6I loft of30° as did the MX19.

Horses for courses.

If it works for you, why worry about what is written on the bottom of the club.

 

[DMC]

We as the consumers need to take a share of the blame,we all love distance. How many can honestly say that they havent told a story about hitting a 7 iron as there second shot into a par 5,or something similar? We all do it,power/distance is addictive.

 

[Imurg]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but don't the pro's have all their clubs delofted?
So it would bring the wilson clubs close or equal to the lofts that pro's use.
Since we have to use 'something' as a benchmark I would compare the loft of my clubs to that of a pro and be able to compare my distances to a pro's distance. But if we stick to the traditional lofts I would have nothing to compare it too?

I think you'll find most of them have lofts similar to the Titleist lofts above. If you check out the "in the bag" features in mags you'll see.

 

[Ken_A]

I dont care about lofts - though I do find I need a few wedges (130yds for my 47* PW). I just know how far they all go (sort of)
For me I know I am 2 clubs stronger then one mate and 1 stronger than the other -(and its the same when I borrow their clubs) I know I need my 52 from red and 7/6I from yellow sticks the rest I can work out.

Tho I would be pissed hitting a PW 145 yards just after breaking the fingers on an 18* 3I.

 

[Ken_A]

I think you'll find most of them have lofts similar to the Titleist lofts above. If you check out the "in the bag" features in mags you'll see.

I hear folks telling us that pros lofts are all really strong - my answer is normally

'check out their drivers they use 8-9* with 14* 3 woods and 18/19* rescues - so why would they put their 5I to 15*-they hit it a mile coz its their job and they have kit that made for them specifically, they hit x-stiff shafts while we fool ourselves that we can use stiff'

 

[RGDave]

You had me worried for a bit there, I thought I was going to be rumbled for talking rubbish!!

t.b.h. even the specs on the Mx200 are a degree or two stronger than my Mx900s.

The loft on a Wilson PW is LESS than on my Mizuno 9 iron. So, this set is not only 1 iron out it's getting on for 1.5 irons strong.

Good homework mate.....well discovered, and well put together.....impressive!!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

It all comes down to the industry being able to sell length to consumers. Its what joe average seeks and craves and to be fair Wilson are only giving people what they want. I agree that the only way you'll truely know what your hitting from maker to maker though is to have loft and not numbers stamped on the bottom.

When I got my TM's at a demo day I was on a crap range which had not accurate distance markers. I got some semblance of 6 iron distances frm trackman but once I was left in a bay to hit other clubs I had no real feel for how far they were going. What I bought on was the flight, the feel of the club for my swing and most importantly how tightly together I was hitting each one.

It is an interesting thread and I can see it provoking much debate but don't think GM are really in a position (I may be wrong) to come out and publish one make against another or make specific comments. Where do we go though? Do we look for makes with a more average loft or will we continue to buy stronger lofted clubs. Lets not forget, Wilson are a decent manufacturer and don't really make a bad set but when will strong lofts become too strong

 

[haplesshacker]

We've covered this a few times, but it's always worth pointing out. It's pure marketing spiel and babble. Oh, look how far I hit a 6 iron,. Well it's no surprise matey! Look at the lofts. But what annoys me is that sellers try and convince the punter that it's a better club because it goes further! Tosh!

As others have said (again). Put the god damn lofts on the soles of the clubs, not this arbitry number!

 

[colint]

The mag are in a difficult position re bringing this up as they obviously don't want to annoy potential advertisers etc, but I wonder if they could ask some of them for an opinion on it.