The church and politics

Foxholer said:
I find the attitudes of the extremists of both forms of Christian beliefs distinctly un-Christian!
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Extremists in any form of religion are frigtening. To copy a quote from a different thread.....
Robster59 said:
I've not given up on humanity but I am seriously giving up on religion. It is without a doubt that most angst in this world is caused by somebodies religious beliefs. Not the basic ones as most religions teach humanity, forgiveness and tolerance. It is the extremists, in any religion, who take one part of the readings and use it to further their twisted view on life.
And I am not picking out any particular religion here. It can, and be in any religion, whether it be Protestants v Catholics, Sunnis v Shia, or whatever. Because they interpret something that was written up to two thousand years ago in their own manner and with their own slant you can read pretty much whatever you like into it.
Look at some of the religious fanatics in the USA who don't believe in Evolution.
Or the amount of people who say God is on their side. In every battle it seems every opposing faction has "God on their side" which means they are all seriously misguided or God is incredibly schizophrenic!
So am I religious? I was but it's getting less and less by the day the more I see people doing things like this "In the name of God!"
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
If Theresa May has strong faith beliefs then I suspect she will have had struggles as Home Secretary and Prime Minister - and that these struggles might have become very evident during the GE campaign. I got the impression that she was basically acting using a script put together by her two main advisers. That she did not sound authentic might well be because she was not being true to herself, but she could just about act the part when following the script. Put her in front of challenging members of the public and the mask would have slipped and she would not have been able to speak in an authentic manner on an ad-hoc basis - because what she had to say she was really not that comfortable with given her faith and beliefs. Just my observation
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You may be over thinking this. She might just be rubbish at human interaction.
 
Kellfire said:
Yes, I know it doesn't exist as proven by the myriad evidence that disproves any documented record of said god; that be whether you call it YHWH, Allah, Buddha or whatever. All are easily disproven and force followers to interpret their god's word (yea, because an omnipotent being would speak to mere mortals in riddles and metaphors) and decide what god meant, as if a god isn't capable of speaking clearly.
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Unbelievably, I absolutely agree with you - not a sentiment I ever thought I'd type! :smirk:
 
Kellfire said:
Yes, I know it doesn't exist as proven by the myriad evidence that disproves any documented record of said god; that be whether you call it YHWH, Allah, Buddha or whatever. All are easily disproven and force followers to interpret their god's word (yea, because an omnipotent being would speak to mere mortals in riddles and metaphors) and decide what god meant, as if a god isn't capable of speaking clearly.
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You actually didn't answer the question about whether you know what the God that I believe in, and have a faith in, actually is. And I would be interesting how you know that the existence of a God (whatever name you may call or give your god) has been disproven. Perhaps you are suggesting that all of the things in the Bible ascribed to God have been scientifically proven to be nothing to do with God? Though how you disprove a very old account of something I am not so sure. Science and Mathematics are, after all, only languages that we have invented to explain what we see, hear and experience. And even then there is much that these languages cannot explain.

That aside - we believe a lot of what scientists tell us - usually unquestioningly. For example, the scientists tell us there are things called Black Holes. And we believe them. And what is the evidence that Black Holes exist and what do they look like? Well actually the evidence is mostly as far as I understand it circumstantial, and based upon the impact something we choose to call a Black Hole has on the universe, matter and various phenomenon - gravity, light - in it's vicinity. And so we deduce what a Black Hole must be - but other than that we struggle to describe them - indeed they do seem to be invisible - we just see their effect.
 
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I heard a view expressed today that May might actually be too embarrassed to face the people of North Kensington. Perhaps she knows that the austerity programme her government has followed over recent years has impacts on the poorer and more needy of our society that are totally at odds with the teachings of her faith and beliefs.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
You actually didn't answer the question about whether you know what the God that I believe in, and have a faith in, actually is. And I would be interesting how you know that the existence of a God (whatever name you may call or give your god) has been disproven. Perhaps you are suggesting that all of the things in the Bible ascribed to God have been scientifically proven to be nothing to do with God? Though how you disprove a very old account of something I am not so sure. Science and Mathematics are, after all, only languages that we have invented to explain what we see, hear and experience. And even then there is much that these languages cannot explain.

That aside - we believe a lot of what scientists tell us - usually unquestioningly. For example, the scientists tell us there are things called Black Holes. And we believe them. And what is the evidence that Black Holes exist and what do they look like? Well actually the evidence is mostly as far as I understand it circumstantial, and based upon the impact something we choose to call a Black Hole has on the universe, matter and various phenomenon - gravity, light - in it's vicinity. And so we deduce what a Black Hole must be - but other than that we struggle to describe them - indeed they do seem to be invisible - we just see their effect.
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Yes, sometimes theories are inferred by evidence when there is substantial evidence for and little or none against.

Case for a god - books littered with errors
Case against a god - literally everything else

There is no god in terms of the Christian, Islamic, Jewish and any of the other main faiths of the world. They don't meet their own definitions of themselves. There may be a creator out there I suppose who isn't making themselves known, yea. I'll concede that. :)
 
Kellfire said:
Yes, sometimes theories are inferred by evidence when there is substantial evidence for and little or none against.

Case for a god - books littered with errors
Case against a god - literally everything else

There is no god in terms of the Christian, Islamic, Jewish and any of the other main faiths of the world. They don't meet their own definitions of themselves. There may be a creator out there I suppose who isn't making themselves known, yea. I'll concede that. :)
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I'm afraid that you perhaps don't understand religious believe and faith and how these can work for you and through you.

If you can't define God then you can't tell me that mine doesn't exist.

And were I a politician I would use the values that my belief and faith instills in me to direct my thinking (as I do in life). I would not necessarily use the words in a book as written to direct me. It doesn't work that way (for me). So there are words in the Bible that suggest homosexual relationships are a sin - but these are limited - there is much more in the Bible that stresses to me that love and compassion for all is above all. And so, for instance, my tradition is positive towards homosexual relationships and supportive of same sex marriage (in church as well as out of it).

The story of the Good Samaritan tells how your actions driven out of compassion for your fellow man, should supersede any differences in social, political, ethnic or religious beliefs that you may hold. That does not stop you holding your beliefs, and you do not have to change your beliefs, but these beliefs need not determine your actions towards and for others.

That's just how I see it.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I heard a view expressed today that May might actually be too embarrassed to face the people of North Kensington. Perhaps she knows that the austerity programme her government has followed over recent years has impacts on the poorer and more needy of our society that are totally at odds with the teachings of her faith and beliefs.
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I see a try of turning this into another "Politically motivated thread".
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
So we somehow have to forget that the PM is a vicars daughter and has a strong belief and faith? How did I ever know that...

Besides remind me of the thread title and who was referred to in the OP...
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I get that but a few posters are just using it as yet another bile spewing rant at the current PM . It's seems every time something doesn't go the way of the few on here the modern way is to be thoroughly nasty to the winners. Seems to catch on from the footie threads.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
You actually didn't answer the question about whether you know what the God that I believe in, and have a faith in, actually is. And I would be interesting how you know that the existence of a God (whatever name you may call or give your god) has been disproven. Perhaps you are suggesting that all of the things in the Bible ascribed to God have been scientifically proven to be nothing to do with God? Though how you disprove a very old account of something I am not so sure. Science and Mathematics are, after all, only languages that we have invented to explain what we see, hear and experience. And even then there is much that these languages cannot explain.

That aside - we believe a lot of what scientists tell us - usually unquestioningly. For example, the scientists tell us there are things called Black Holes. And we believe them. And what is the evidence that Black Holes exist and what do they look like? Well actually the evidence is mostly as far as I understand it circumstantial, and based upon the impact something we choose to call a Black Hole has on the universe, matter and various phenomenon - gravity, light - in it's vicinity. And so we deduce what a Black Hole must be - but other than that we struggle to describe them - indeed they do seem to be invisible - we just see their effect.
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SILH. You are mixing your 2 worlds up badly!

Your faith is unshakeable (at least, to/by me!) - no problem with that. In fact, I'm pleased for you that you have it!

However, you appear to have applied similar 'logic' to 'The Scientific Method', which is wrong! When a rigorous proof is not applicable, The Scientific Method makes observations about 'unexplained' phenomena; hypostulates/predicts what caused them, creates experiments or makes predictions about subsequent phenomena to test the hypothesis; observes/records the subsequent results as 'proof', or otherwise, of the hypothesis! There are many famous examples, from Archimedes, through Galileo and Newton, Darwin, Einstein and many others through to The Higgs Boson! Even notable 'failures', such as the Michelson-Morley's experiment, can actually contribute to overall knowledge!

Scientific Method and Faith are not mutually exclusive!! Great suffering has been caused by those who, usually for selfish reasons rather than ones associated with either Science or (their) Faith, would have us believe that they are! Most scientists DO have faith that there is (a) God! That supposed contradiction (God vs Science) is merely an attitude that I don't believe is binary - though again (I believe) it's impossible to prove!
 
Foxholer said:
SILH. You are mixing your 2 worlds up badly!

Your faith is unshakeable (at least, to/by me!) - no problem with that. In fact, I'm pleased for you that you have it!

However, you appear to have applied similar 'logic' to 'The Scientific Method', which is wrong! When a rigorous proof is not applicable, The Scientific Method makes observations about 'unexplained' phenomena; hypostulates/predicts what caused them, creates experiments or makes predictions about subsequent phenomena to test the hypothesis; observes/records the subsequent results as 'proof', or otherwise, of the hypothesis! There are many famous examples, from Archimedes, through Galileo and Newton, Darwin, Einstein and many others through to The Higgs Boson! Even notable 'failures', such as the Michelson-Morley's experiment, can actually contribute to overall knowledge!

Scientific Method and Faith are not mutually exclusive!! Great suffering has been caused by those who, usually for selfish reasons rather than ones associated with either Science or (their) Faith, would have us believe that they are! Most scientists DO have faith that there is (a) God! That supposed contradiction (God vs Science) is merely an attitude that I don't believe is binary - though again (I believe) it's impossible to prove!
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That's interesting - many thanks for that and I'll reflect on it.

Where I use the Black Hole analogy (and may have got my logic wrong in trying to explain it) is when I am asked about a God. I listen to the explanations of Black Holes and can understand and accept the explanations. But until relatively (1971) we did not know of Black Holes. What was observed was that something unknown and unexplained was having an effect on gravity and light - we could detect and observe the effect but could not explain the cause. Over time as you have said, by The Scientific Method we have gained an understanding about what is going on. So Black Holes are no longer a mystery.

Similarly today astronomers will tell us that there is another outlier planet in our Solar System. And how do we know it is there? Because of the effect it has on other bodies in our universe - I am not aware that it has actually been observed.

And so to a God. Though I cannot describe or point to a God those of belief and faith can observe the changes in, and effects on, others that their belief tells me is the influence of a God. Because there is nothing else that can explain these changes.

But it's all just to do with belief and faith.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
That's interesting - many thanks for that and I'll reflect on it.

Where I use the Black Hole analogy (and may have got my logic wrong in trying to explain it) is when I am asked about a God. I listen to the explanations of Black Holes and can understand and accept the explanations. But until relatively (1971) we did not know of Black Holes. What was observed was that something unknown and unexplained was having an effect on gravity and light - we could detect and observe the effect but could not explain the cause. Over time as you have said, by The Scientific Method we have gained an understanding about what is going on. So Black Holes are no longer a mystery.

Similarly today astronomers will tell us that there is another outlier planet in our Solar System. And how do we know it is there? Because of the effect it has on other bodies in our universe - I am not aware that it has actually been observed.

And so to a God. Though I cannot describe or point to a God those of belief and faith can observe the changes in, and effects on, others that their belief tells me is the influence of a God. Because there is nothing else that can explain these changes.

But it's all just to do with belief and faith.
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Good post.

I rarely delve deeply on the religious threads as they even more pointed than the political threads. I believe very deeply, being of ardent Irish catholic decent can do that. I've seen the worst of the Church, and I mean the very worst, and I've seen the very best. The very best is backed by a belief and faith.

Is it only a code of conduct developed over thousands of years? I don't care. Does it matter that thousands of scientists decry it? I don't care.

I won't ram it down anyone's throat, so please don't ram the non-beliefs down mine. I'll debate them over a pint but I won't argue them. You believe your bit, which I'll respect, just leave me to mine.
 
Hobbit said:
Good post.

I rarely delve deeply on the religious threads as they even more pointed than the political threads. I believe very deeply, being of ardent Irish catholic decent can do that. I've seen the worst of the Church, and I mean the very worst, and I've seen the very best. The very best is backed by a belief and faith.

Is it only a code of conduct developed over thousands of years? I don't care. Does it matter that thousands of scientists decry it? I don't care.

I won't ram it down anyone's throat, so please don't ram the non-beliefs down mine. I'll debate them over a pint but I won't argue them. You believe your bit, which I'll respect, just leave me to mine.
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Good one sir!
 
The main reason why, especially in the past, I've set out to show people how wrong their beliefs are is because religion is clearly the single greatest evil to exist on this earth. It's mind controlling nonsense that was created solely to bend the will of man against others.
 
Hobbit said:
Good post.

I rarely delve deeply on the religious threads as they even more pointed than the political threads. I believe very deeply, being of ardent Irish catholic decent can do that. I've seen the worst of the Church, and I mean the very worst, and I've seen the very best. The very best is backed by a belief and faith.

Is it only a code of conduct developed over thousands of years? I don't care. Does it matter that thousands of scientists decry it? I don't care.

I won't ram it down anyone's throat, so please don't ram the non-beliefs down mine. I'll debate them over a pint but I won't argue them. You believe your bit, which I'll respect, just leave me to mine.
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And that last sentance hobbit should be in most political or religious manifestos. The problem arises when some/most are prepared to "respect". But others prefer not to and even use force to press there agenda.

good post sir.👍
 
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