Snow in bunker.

[AuburnWarrior]

We played recently and in certain bunkers there was snow.

Now, before going out, we were told that if our ball came to rest in the bunker and it was on the snow that we could touch the snow with our club. Is that correct?

Surely the snow becomes part of the hazard and, as such, the grounding of the club would incur a shot penalty?

Your advice, as ever, is very much appreciated.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Guessing but..... casual water?

 

[DCB]

See the Definition of Casual Water. Snow gets a mention.

 

[upsidedown]

Told to treat it as casual water

 

[duncan mackie]

Snow is either casual water or a loose impediment at the choice of the player. In a bunker if you choose cw you may touch the water as long as you don't touch the sand.

 

[rulefan]

Interesting situation today at the Faldo Series. 1/3 of the bunkers were full of snow so declared GUR compulsory relief.
So far so good.
But in a couple of the bunkers the snow overlaps the margin of the bunker.

What relief options has the player got if his ball is in the snow within the the 'bunker' margins?

 

[Colin L]

I'm slightly confused by what you mean. If your ball lies within the margins of a bunker marked as GUR with mandatory relief, it doesn't matter whether it is in the 1/3 that is covered in snow or the 2/3 free from snow. You must take relief under Rule 25-1b(i). If there is snow outwith the margin of a GUR bunker, you would proceed with the relief from the GUR and drop your ball within one CL of the NPR. If your ball comes to rest in snow, you could then take relief from it as casual water, again under 25-1b(i). (Alternatively, you could brush the snow away from around the ball and play it where it was.)

That is on the basis that the bunker marked as GUR and snow outwith the bunker margins are separate instances of abnormal ground conditions.

The current problem with snow could be that your nearest point of relief was somewhere in southern Spain.

 

[rulefan]

Colin
Sorry, when I wrote 1/3 I meant 30 out of 90 on the course.

Rather than try and describe it again the annswer is in 25-1b/11

Imagine the GUR being the bunker and the casual water is snow.

 

[Colin L]

So, 1 in 3 bunkers were GUR - a classic misreading on my part.

I remain puzzled by what you are asking, however. You ask what the relief options are if your ball is in snow in a bunker designated as GUR with mandatory relief? I don't see any options at all:if a player is going to take take relief from a GUR bunker, he must do so outside the bunker under Rule 25-1b(i). In this case, play is prohibited from the GUR, and so he has only one available course of action.

Decision 25-1b/11 tells us what to do where two overlapping or contiguous abnormal ground conditions mean that the NPR from one lies in the other and makes it clear that you must deal with each separately and one after the other. That is not relevant to a bunker defined as GUR which contains water or snow within its margins -which is, I reckon, a single abnormal ground condition.

If you find that the water in a GUR bunker has spilled over the margins or that the snow has filled the bunker and beyond the margins, then in my answer above, I read that as being two separate, abnormal ground conditions - the GUR bunker up to its margin and any casual water or snow outwith the margin. If your ball after dropping outside the bunker comes to rest in the snow or water, that is a new situation and you can choose to play as it lies or to take relief under 25-1b(i) or in the case of snow to treat it as a loose impediment.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Interesting situation today at the Faldo Series. 1/3 of the bunkers were full of snow so declared GUR compulsory relief.
So far so good.
But in a couple of the bunkers the snow overlaps the margin of the bunker.

What relief options has the player got if his ball is in the snow within the the 'bunker' margins?

Pretty lazy greenkeepers at that course then!

 

[duncan mackie]

Interesting situation today at the Faldo Series. 1/3 of the bunkers were full of snow so declared GUR compulsory relief.
So far so good.
But in a couple of the bunkers the snow overlaps the margin of the bunker.

What relief options has the player got if his ball is in the snow within the the 'bunker' margins?

Not sure that 25-1b/11 does cover this question particularily well at all.

For a start it includes a may, which is always worrying in a relief situation!!!

Sticking with the question you have raised, or point you are making, here, the players ball lies outside the bunker which is declared GUR play prohibited - but on an area of snow which overlaps the bunker margin ie is continuous.

The player is entitled to relief under 25-1b if he deems the snow to be casual water (or he can brush it away if he deems it a Loose impediment) but, to my mind, the real question then becomes whether the player has to drop the ball in the GUR if it is his nearest point of relief from the casual water?

I believe the answer is yes, but again 20-7/3 continues to reference may and it's only when we get to 1-4/8 that the position is clarified.

Now, what might be interesting is whether, if his NPR from the bunker is back where he just took relief from, he is permitted to deem the snow a LI and clear it before dropping or not. I think he could if he wished, or end up in a 1-4/8 situation with regards to the snow and the GUR.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I have a question in relation to the fact that snow in the bunker can be either CW or LI.

If you are in a bunker but have a good lie and wish to play the ball, can you move any snow that might be interfering with your swing?

Bearing in mind that;

1. you aren't allowed to touch or move a LI in a hazard (Rule 13-4c),
2. you aren't allowed to improve the area of your stance or swing by removing dew, frost or water (Rule 13-2),

on one hand it would seem that you can't as you are caught by one or other of the above rules, but on the other hand Decsion 13-4/7 indicates there would be no penalty if you touched the snow.

My feeling is you probably can't but I'd be interested if anyone can offer a view on this one way or the other.

 

[rulefan]

1) The bunker was declared GUR (and is therefore through the green). The snow was not mentioned so remained Casual Water (or LI but ignore that for a moment). Therefore the situation matches 25-1b/11.5 exactly.
The complication is that the GUR is deemed 'play prohibited'. So on the face of it the option of dropping from the CW onto the sand is not allowed. However, the LR only said that 'play' is prohibited. It does not say that dropping is prohibited. Therefore the player may drop the ball onto the sand providing he does not make a stroke but takes the compulsory further relief if appropriate.

2) Any contiguous area of snow is one area of casual water whether it overlaps the margin or not.

3) After the event I confirmed with the R&A that the interpretation and the LR was correct. During further discussion about trying to avoid the possibilty of players not understanding the potential 'double step' procedure it was suggested that the best solution would have been to declare the bunker and all the contained and overflowing snow to be one contiguous GUR from which play was prohibited. The LR would have to be specific in defining the margin and clearly understandable but it was thought safer than hoping players without a nearby referee would be less likely to get it wrong.
Apparently the reason that this was not suggested in the Decision was that theoretically the GUR was declared and defined before the CW appeared and that was the status of the course when the question arose.

This implies that a declaration of CW being GUR overrides its natural status. I am going to get this confirmed.

 

[rulefan]

I have a question in relation to the fact that snow in the bunker can be either CW or LI.

If you are in a bunker but have a good lie and wish to play the ball, can you move any snow that might be interfering with your swing?

Bearing in mind that;

1. you aren't allowed to touch or move a LI in a hazard (Rule 13-4c),
2. you aren't allowed to improve the area of your stance or swing by removing dew, frost or water (Rule 13-2),

on one hand it would seem that you can't as you are caught by one or other of the above rules, but on the other hand Decsion 13-4/7 indicates there would be no penalty if you touched the snow.

My feeling is you probably can't but I'd be interested if anyone can offer a view on this one way or the other.

Assuming the bunker is not declared GUR then the snow may be touched but not moved providing the player makes it clear that he is treating it as casual water.

If the bunker is declared GUR then it is no longer a hazard and the player may remove the snow providing he makes it clear that he is treating it as a LI and he does not move the ball.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Assuming the bunker is not declared GUR then the snow may be touched but not moved providing the player makes it clear that he is treating it as casual water.

If the bunker is declared GUR then it is no longer a hazard and the player may remove the snow providing he makes it clear that he is treating it as a LI and he does not move the ball.

Thanks. That all makes sense.