Smacking

[Deleted member 21258]

There is no silver bullet but there are a few things to look at. Firstly, teacher training. A good teacher will control a class, no matter what the pupils are like. There have always been naughty kids yet somehow we can all remember teachers that would hold a class in their hand. We need that knowledge of how to do it to be spread throughout. Hard to do as for some it is not their nature to be commanding, not threatening but commanding.

You need a head teacher that enforces a good culture within the school. They need to have rules, enforce them, back the teachers. Teachers and pupils then know exactly where they stand, there are no weak lines to push against.

Pupils, as MiB pointed out a lot of problems now occur due to the breakdown of the family, a lack of positive family role models. If a school is in an area where this is prevelant then they are likely to encounter more issues. At this point the school needs a good welfare dept. They can help the kids in trouble, find out what the problems are, see what can be done for them, engage the parents (if the parents want to be engaged) If you ever watched the Educating Yorkshire programme that school was in a problem area but had a great welfare section. The ladies in there knew the home problems of the kids, tried to help them and keep them in school. Every naughty kid had a story, a reason why they did what they did. Most of them were sad stories, they needed help, hope, a reason to learn not a whack. Obviously some kids are plain horrible, get them out of the system and leave the other kids to learn.

There is more than the above, it is complicated, but it is a start.

In one little sentence highlighted you have swept under the carpet the problem. That is the problem(they are in the system and remain they do, some in your words are 'plain horrible' and others due to temper and/or things going on in their life have their moments.

They are all children and need help to comply with the real world.

In the past the help as such would have been a clip around the ear or on the legs or if in school caned at the extreme(after lines/detention etc). This potentially leant them a lesson, ie. do not step over the line. It was called a deterrent.

Life is like that, break the law get locked up, give the wrong person cheek and punch in the face and so on.

What is the deterrent now, wait until your dad comes home he will give you a cuddle ? (it is hard, real hard to control, an out of control child or adult without a deterrent......)

 

[Lord Tyrion]

In one little sentence highlighted you have swept under the carpet the problem. That is the problem(they are in the system and remain they do, some in your words are 'plain horrible' and others due to temper and/or things going on in their life have their moments.

They are all children and need help to comply with the real world.

In the past the help as such would have been a clip around the ear or on the legs or if in school caned at the extreme(after lines/detention etc). This potentially leant them a lesson, ie. do not step over the line. It was called a deterrent.

Life is like that, break the law get locked up, give the wrong person cheek and punch in the face and so on.

What is the deterrent now, wait until your dad comes home he will give you a cuddle ? (it is hard, real hard to control, an out of control child or adult without a deterrent......)

My point, that of many others, the French, and now the Scots is that hitting them doesn't work. Do the real trouble makers really fear being hit or do they laugh at it?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

There is no silver bullet but there are a few things to look at. Firstly, teacher training. A good teacher will control a class, no matter what the pupils are like. There have always been naughty kids yet somehow we can all remember teachers that would hold a class in their hand. We need that knowledge of how to do it to be spread throughout. Hard to do as for some it is not their nature to be commanding, not threatening but commanding.

You need a head teacher that enforces a good culture within the school. They need to have rules, enforce them, back the teachers. Teachers and pupils then know exactly where they stand, there are no weak lines to push against.

Pupils, as MiB pointed out a lot of problems now occur due to the breakdown of the family, a lack of positive family role models. If a school is in an area where this is prevelant then they are likely to encounter more issues. At this point the school needs a good welfare dept. They can help the kids in trouble, find out what the problems are, see what can be done for them, engage the parents (if the parents want to be engaged) If you ever watched the Educating Yorkshire programme that school was in a problem area but had a great welfare section. The ladies in there knew the home problems of the kids, tried to help them and keep them in school. Every naughty kid had a story, a reason why they did what they did. Most of them were sad stories, they needed help, hope, a reason to learn not a whack. Obviously some kids are plain horrible, get them out of the system and leave the other kids to learn.

There is more than the above, it is complicated, but it is a start.

The teachers who commanded that were the ones that were strict , the ones that would use the cane or strap or get a slap

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

There is no silver bullet but there are a few things to look at. Firstly, teacher training. A good teacher will control a class, no matter what the pupils are like. There have always been naughty kids yet somehow we can all remember teachers that would hold a class in their hand. We need that knowledge of how to do it to be spread throughout. Hard to do as for some it is not their nature to be commanding, not threatening but commanding.

You need a head teacher that enforces a good culture within the school. They need to have rules, enforce them, back the teachers. Teachers and pupils then know exactly where they stand, there are no weak lines to push against.

Pupils, as MiB pointed out a lot of problems now occur due to the breakdown of the family, a lack of positive family role models. If a school is in an area where this is prevelant then they are likely to encounter more issues. At this point the school needs a good welfare dept. They can help the kids in trouble, find out what the problems are, see what can be done for them, engage the parents (if the parents want to be engaged) If you ever watched the Educating Yorkshire programme that school was in a problem area but had a great welfare section. The ladies in there knew the home problems of the kids, tried to help them and keep them in school. Every naughty kid had a story, a reason why they did what they did. Most of them were sad stories, they needed help, hope, a reason to learn not a whack. Obviously some kids are plain horrible, get them out of the system and leave the other kids to learn.

There is more than the above, it is complicated, but it is a start.

I'm afraid you are way off the mark. Teachers have no power. They cannot physically touch a pupil in any way without putting their job at risk. It is a common occurrence for pupils to tell my G/F to eff off and the worst she can do is hand out a detention that the child may or may not decide to turn up for. She works at a high performing school with some of the best results in Dorset.
Once it is accepted that our softly softly approach is creating a problem then maybe something will be done to fix it but I fear we have gone beyond the point of no return.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Big difference between a parent smacking a kid and a school teacher.
The op is about banning parents, if the kid comes from an abusive family, god help them.
The kids need protecting from abuse, unfortunately I believe it’s probably impossible to ban varying degrees of smacking.
A gentle tap on the nappy, cold hands on a warm oven etc, done in the name of education, very difficult line to walk and not too short a leap to a possible over the top reaction from a parent.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Big difference between a parent smacking a kid and a school teacher.
The op is about banning parents, if the kid comes from an abusive family, god help them.
The kids need protecting from abuse, unfortunately I believe it’s probably impossible to ban varying degrees of smacking.
A gentle tap on the nappy, cold hands on a warm oven etc, done in the name of education, very difficult line to walk and not too short a leap to a possible over the top reaction from a parent.

Agree Paul but the majority of parents from our generation seemed to manage it.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

My point, that of many others, the French, and now the Scots is that hitting them doesn't work. Do the real trouble makers really fear being hit or do they laugh at it?

Any actual proof that not smacking works, any proper studies or just peoples words ? Interested if there is and also how they coped with the children ?

Taking those thoughts to the extreme, if there are no deterrents in life....do you think many adults would care about stealing and other crimes you would consider unacceptable now ? There are many cases of people stealing, who you would think would never, but they thought they would get away with it.

For the general population, deterrents and the possibility of being caught are needed to ensure the person does not do x,y,z against the law.

In respect of a child, I do not agree with abuse or smashing a child, however learning the facts and lines in life, smacking is not the end of the world...and as I posted in the other thread, using mental torture/abuse to control a child, personally I think is worse than a clip. I can remember one of our relations, who used to wash their childrens months out with soap, still cant believe someone doing that to a child

Preventing a naughty child from being naughty is not easy, its tough real tough.

 

[need_my_wedge]

I was never hit by my parents but I was aware the threat existed - sometimes the ultimate deterrence needs to be there. Remove the deterrence and where's the line?

That's why I can count on one hand the number of tmes I used it. At first, it was "don't do that", then a second warning threatening a slap, if they carried on it was a slap. After a couple of times dishing a slap, it became "don't do that" the first time, then "do you want a slap" the second time, there was no need for a third warning, the threat was deterrent enough.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Preventing a naughty child from being naughty is not easy, its tough real tough.

Indeed and the younger a child is disciplined the sooner it learns.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Any actual proof that not smacking works, any proper studies or just peoples words ? Interested if there is and also how they coped with the children ?

Taking those thoughts to the extreme, if there are no deterrents in life....do you think many adults would care about stealing and other crimes you would consider unacceptable now ? There are many cases of people stealing, who you would think would never, but they thought they would get away with it.

For the general population, deterrents and the possibility of being caught are needed to ensure the person does not do x,y,z against the law.

In respect of a child, I do not agree with abuse or smashing a child, however learning the facts and lines in life, smacking is not the end of the world...and as I posted in the other thread, using mental torture/abuse to control a child, personally I think is worse than a clip. I can remember one of our relations, who used to wash their childrens months out with soap, still cant believe someone doing that to a child

Preventing a naughty child from being naughty is not easy, its tough real tough.

For general studies I would suggest looking at anything by Dr Tanya Byron, a child Psychologist. As to individual studies, not my field I'm afraid.

Apparently there are now 58 countries where smacking is against the law. They are likely to be doing it for a reason

I agree there need to be deterrents but why physical? If that worked why do we not hit adults who have done wrong? There are plenty of deterrents to use on kids, it is just about working out what works with each one.

 

[Don Barzini]

My other half is a secondary school teacher. Every evening I hear first hand how unruly and disrespectful modern kids are.

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

- Socrates (469-399BC)

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I'm afraid you are way off the mark. Teachers have no power. They cannot physically touch a pupil in any way without putting their job at risk. It is a common occurrence for pupils to tell my G/F to eff off and the worst she can do is hand out a detention that the child may or may not decide to turn up for. She works at a high performing school with some of the best results in Dorset.
Once it is accepted that our softly softly approach is creating a problem then maybe something will be done to fix it but I fear we have gone beyond the point of no return.

They haven't been able to touch a kid for 40+ years, nothing new there. Your G/F needs better backing from her head if that is allowed to ride.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The teachers who commanded that were the ones that were strict , the ones that would use the cane or strap or get a slap

What era did you go to school? Seriously, I am pretty sure you are not old enough to be of that time.

I'm 49 and that was not allowed. Good teachers controlled their classes no matter who was in them, without canes, straps or slaps.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

They haven't been able to touch a kid for 40+ years, nothing new there. Your G/F needs better backing from her head if that is allowed to ride.

Sorry but if that is all you can come up with then you are part of the problem.

 

[USER1999]

I am 54, caning was common place. As was the slipper, or a ruler. Picking kids up by the hair was frowned on, but not forbidden. Getting hit by a black board rubber wasn't pleasant either, but then you should be paying attention. Oddly, catching the flipping thing earned you a caning for being smart.

The one that always got me was everyone who hadn't had a whack during the day had to queue up at the end, and get one anyway, on the basis you probably just hadn't been caught. Nice.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Sorry but if that is all you can come up with then you are part of the problem.

That is a ridiculous statement.

 

[robinthehood]

What era did you go to school? Seriously, I am pretty sure you are not old enough to be of that time.

I'm 49 and that was not allowed. Good teachers controlled their classes no matter who was in them, without canes, straps or slaps.

I don't think it was banned untill the 80s. Although it was never used at schools I went to.
It's an archaic practice, I don't see how the threat of violence can be anyway conducive to good behaviour.

 

[GB72]

I agree that there needs to be some form of deterrent but it can be a beneficial one. Ok I went to private school and so have not experienced many of the problems that others face and corporal punishment was always a threat in my early school days. The good old note to the parents used to work as the parents in the 70s would apply a suitable punishment and make it stick. I feel some parents cave in on a given punishment after only a few days.

On the more beneficial side, in later life punishment was running laps, after school pt sessions, writing out lists of important dates (amazing how many I still remember) and good old detention for an hour after school. Privileges were also removed and so you could not leave school grounds at lunchtime when everyone else went into town or you were dropped from school sports teams until the teacher reported an improvement in behaviour.

All of these were good deterrents and I do feel that some form of enforceable deterrent is needed. Thing is that parents need to support this and support teachers where some seem to bury their head in the sand and complain that it cannot possibly be their kid and even get abusive if the punishment inconveniences them.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I don't think it was banned untill the 80s. Although it was never used at schools I went to.
It's an archaic practice, I don't see how the threat of violence can be anyway conducive to good behaviour.

You may be right about the banning, I just don't ever remember it exisiting then. It certainly did not at the schools I went to, standard state schools.

Totally agree with you, it is Victorian stuff.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

I don't think it was banned untill the 80s. Although it was never used at schools I went to.
It's an archaic practice, I don't see how the threat of violence can be anyway conducive to good behaviour.

I am 50 and remember canning & slipper still being around at secondary school(well certainly the first couple years at a guess, maybe it was banned whilst I was there?). Remember seeing one lads bum that had been canned by the head and thought knickers to that.

The good or bad teachers still had problems with the real naughty children, it was normally the strict teachers were the ones that controlled the class the best. IIRC the two teachers who used the slipper(think only once in my class and sure that stopped after the first year but memory is a bit hazy, blocked it all out), were the teachers no one messed with... Not saying it was right.